5 ms·

Plenty of planned obsolescence. I won’t go into my rant but my brother is an engineer who is paid very handsomely to make sure that products outlast their warra

by K0balt 4y ago

Plenty of planned obsolescence. I won’t go into my rant but my brother is an engineer who is paid very handsomely to make sure that products outlast their warranty period but then fail predictably. He engineers special plastics that degrade rapidly after 5 or 6 years, gears that fail after 10th no later than 12 years, bearing assemblies that will leak but not fail between 4000 to 5500 hours, etc. Often the components he designs cost more to manufacture that components that would last much, much longer. . To build a pump that will 99 percent make it to 3000 hours, that means half will make it to 9000 hours or more. Unless you really, really make sure that 90 percent will also fail by 4000 hours. It’s not easy to do. Some products actually incorporate extra parts such as batteries that serve no other purpose than to cause the unit to degrade after a certain time (honeywell thermostats I’m looking at you … their round thermostat includes a lithium cell. When the lithium cell degrades, the at328p processor switches to a limping mode that regulates +/- 10 degrees, but never less than a little over freezing. The (soldered) battery just goes through a resistor to a GPIO pin. It’s just a chemical timer. It serves no other purpose than to make the unit need to be replaced.) I could go on and on and on, but stuff is definitely designed to fail in predictable ways in a predermined timeframe. Considerable expense is invested in this behavior.

eru 4y ago
What kind of battery goes into the Honeywell thermostat you are talking about? Is it one you have to buy from Honeywell, or an off-the-shelf part? If the latter, how does it help Honeywell that you have to replace it?
- K0balt 4y ago
  It is an off the shelf part. It is (at least in the models I have worked with) possible, but not easy to replace, as the holder is blocked buy other components and the thermostat is not designed to be disassembled. The existence of the battery is undocumented. Since we had over a hundred of these deployed in an apartment complex, when they started failing I carefully characterized their behavior. It just makes them go wonky when it is removed or dies. The at328p functions fine without it, there is no RTC or anything that needs a battery., and the chip is not powered by the battery when power is removed. In fact, there is no discharge from the battery when power is off. The at328p has nonvolatile eeprom and flash storage. Interestingly, the wonky behavior it exhibits is the same (but doesn’t go below 40 degrees (f) ) as an old electromechanical one failing lol.
- Jach 4y ago
  I'm curious too, but even if something is fairly easy to replace or repair a significant amount of people may still just buy new and not bother. (My own landlord is making this choice over a $100 logic board replacement for the garage door opener.)
- eloisius 4y ago
  I think the point is that you (or most people) will replace the entire unit because it's beyond warranty, stops functioning correctly, and a soldered (probably special) battery would be difficult to replace.
  - eru 4y ago
    Yes, a soldered or special battery would be (weak) evidence of the tactic of planned obsolescence. A standard battery that you can just pop in and out, would not be.
  - midoridensha 4y ago
    There's no such thing as a special battery. No manufacturer is going to have some kind of custom battery manufactured just for one part; they always come in standard sizes and voltages. At the very worst, you could hack in a similar-sized battery with the right voltage.
    - eru 4y ago
      The question is how much hacking would be required.
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        Probably not much, but that's still far more than the average consumer is willing or able to do.
    - eloisius 4y ago
      There are batteries special enough that I can't pick one up at Walmart, and for the general public that may render the device kaput. I didn't say it's an unhackable design.
      - midoridensha 4y ago
        >There are batteries special enough that I can't pick one up at Walmart You can't pick up a standard 18650 battery at Walmart either, but that doesn't make it some kind of special battery. It's bog-standard. Availability at Walmart has nothing to do with something is standard or even common. Brake pads for some random mass-market 2015 model year car (GM, Toyota, etc.) are nothing special or difficult to find either, but you're not going to find them at Walmart.
arcanemachined 4y ago
Your brother should write a book.
- _nalply 4y ago
  when he retires?
- april_22 4y ago
  It would be amazing to have a ranking of companies whose products actually work and don't break down after some years. Might be controversial, but I'd place Apple pretty high up there since (excluding the battery thing they did), they built really sturdy hardware that lasts and offer long software support.
temeritatis 4y ago
I knew planned obsolescence was a thing, but this is just insane to me! At best, it's really disingenuous (which is bad enough). No wonder we have so many conspiracy theorists. They've somehow socially engineered this situation to be acceptable (and relatively unknown).
- K0balt 4y ago
  The subscription model is older than most people realize
userbinator 4y ago
special plastics that degrade rapidly after 5 or 6 years ...so the company making parts with them can then extoll the virtues of "biodegradable" in their marketing...? Also, for those who doubt the claim about the Honeywell thermostat having a battery, I did some further research, and it does appear to be true: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/128526/honeywell-the-round-ct87k-battery-question https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/128526/honeywell-th... https://www.amazon.com/review/R3V5R0MJGEFNXH https://www.amazon.com/review/R3V5R0MJGEFNXH But then this video shows that it is relatively easy to replace, it's not soldered in place, although the comments there do mention that the presence of the battery isn't documented anywhere in the original instructions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VKowLXfERo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VKowLXfERo
- somewhat_drunk 4y ago
  The first two links you've provided about the battery don't prove or even suggest that the battery is essentially intended as a chemical timer to disable the thermostat when it runs out, which is the gist of the claim.
  - K0balt 4y ago
    We had a over a hundred deployed so I did pretty exhaustive analysis. There is no rtc or anything that needs power. The at328p chip used has nonvolatile storage, the battery does not supply power when the power to the thermostat is removed, and the battery keeps a gpio pin on the mcu high. It’s pretty plain.
themitigating 4y ago
But how can we be sure you are telling the truth about who your brother is? Many people add ficituous evidence of their views because they are so sure they are right.
- K0balt 4y ago
  Have a look at the little plastic bars that connect heater vent louvers on 1994 Toyota 4 runners. You will find that the plastic of the louvers is fine, but the bar that makes them move as a unit if extremely fragile (now). It also is an individually part numbered part with date codes lol. This is how they tell you your car needs replaced without making it unreliable, so you go buy a new Toyota. Also, the gears inside of refrigerator defrost timers in the 160 refrigerators we bought for an apartment complex. Shockingly, still mechanical. And one of the gears is date coded and has teeth made of a rubbery, disintegrating plastic around a regular nylon wheel. The vast majority of the timers failed in a two years window. At 7-8 years. The cheap replacement timers have no such nonsense and I’ve never seen one fail. Most people just would have replaced the cheap apartment fridge. This is just some of what I’ve personally seen. But you are right, I’m just some guy on the internet, I could be just making this up. And corporations would never make things with life limitations to make more money. Surely. I mean, that would be like a subscription model! Ridiculous!
TheRealDunkirk 4y ago
When I was in engineering school 35 years ago, the "joke" was that our job was to design a car that ran perfectly until its warranty expired, and then, poof!, turned into a pile of dust. I didn't realize this actually became a science. Good grief. Of COURSE it did. Someone should make an expose about this stuff, and sell it to a news program.

by K0balt 4y ago

eru 4y ago

What kind of battery goes into the Honeywell thermostat you are talking about? Is it one you have to buy from Honeywell, or an off-the-shelf part? If the latter, how does it help Honeywell that you have to replace it?

K0balt 4y ago
It is an off the shelf part. It is (at least in the models I have worked with) possible, but not easy to replace, as the holder is blocked buy other components and the thermostat is not designed to be disassembled. The existence of the battery is undocumented. Since we had over a hundred of these deployed in an apartment complex, when they started failing I carefully characterized their behavior. It just makes them go wonky when it is removed or dies. The at328p functions fine without it, there is no RTC or anything that needs a battery., and the chip is not powered by the battery when power is removed. In fact, there is no discharge from the battery when power is off. The at328p has nonvolatile eeprom and flash storage. Interestingly, the wonky behavior it exhibits is the same (but doesn’t go below 40 degrees (f) ) as an old electromechanical one failing lol.
Jach 4y ago
I'm curious too, but even if something is fairly easy to replace or repair a significant amount of people may still just buy new and not bother. (My own landlord is making this choice over a $100 logic board replacement for the garage door opener.)
eloisius 4y ago
I think the point is that you (or most people) will replace the entire unit because it's beyond warranty, stops functioning correctly, and a soldered (probably special) battery would be difficult to replace.
- eru 4y ago
  Yes, a soldered or special battery would be (weak) evidence of the tactic of planned obsolescence. A standard battery that you can just pop in and out, would not be.
- midoridensha 4y ago
  There's no such thing as a special battery. No manufacturer is going to have some kind of custom battery manufactured just for one part; they always come in standard sizes and voltages. At the very worst, you could hack in a similar-sized battery with the right voltage.
  - eru 4y ago
    The question is how much hacking would be required.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      Probably not much, but that's still far more than the average consumer is willing or able to do.
  - eloisius 4y ago
    There are batteries special enough that I can't pick one up at Walmart, and for the general public that may render the device kaput. I didn't say it's an unhackable design.
    - midoridensha 4y ago
      >There are batteries special enough that I can't pick one up at Walmart You can't pick up a standard 18650 battery at Walmart either, but that doesn't make it some kind of special battery. It's bog-standard. Availability at Walmart has nothing to do with something is standard or even common. Brake pads for some random mass-market 2015 model year car (GM, Toyota, etc.) are nothing special or difficult to find either, but you're not going to find them at Walmart.

arcanemachined 4y ago

Your brother should write a book.

_nalply 4y ago
when he retires?
april_22 4y ago
It would be amazing to have a ranking of companies whose products actually work and don't break down after some years. Might be controversial, but I'd place Apple pretty high up there since (excluding the battery thing they did), they built really sturdy hardware that lasts and offer long software support.

temeritatis 4y ago

I knew planned obsolescence was a thing, but this is just insane to me! At best, it's really disingenuous (which is bad enough). No wonder we have so many conspiracy theorists. They've somehow socially engineered this situation to be acceptable (and relatively unknown).

K0balt 4y ago
The subscription model is older than most people realize

userbinator 4y ago

special plastics that degrade rapidly after 5 or 6 years ...so the company making parts with them can then extoll the virtues of "biodegradable" in their marketing...? Also, for those who doubt the claim about the Honeywell thermostat having a battery, I did some further research, and it does appear to be true: https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/128526/honeywell-the-round-ct87k-battery-question https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/128526/honeywell-th... https://www.amazon.com/review/R3V5R0MJGEFNXH https://www.amazon.com/review/R3V5R0MJGEFNXH But then this video shows that it is relatively easy to replace, it's not soldered in place, although the comments there do mention that the presence of the battery isn't documented anywhere in the original instructions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VKowLXfERo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VKowLXfERo

somewhat_drunk 4y ago
The first two links you've provided about the battery don't prove or even suggest that the battery is essentially intended as a chemical timer to disable the thermostat when it runs out, which is the gist of the claim.
- K0balt 4y ago
  We had a over a hundred deployed so I did pretty exhaustive analysis. There is no rtc or anything that needs power. The at328p chip used has nonvolatile storage, the battery does not supply power when the power to the thermostat is removed, and the battery keeps a gpio pin on the mcu high. It’s pretty plain.

themitigating 4y ago

But how can we be sure you are telling the truth about who your brother is? Many people add ficituous evidence of their views because they are so sure they are right.

K0balt 4y ago
Have a look at the little plastic bars that connect heater vent louvers on 1994 Toyota 4 runners. You will find that the plastic of the louvers is fine, but the bar that makes them move as a unit if extremely fragile (now). It also is an individually part numbered part with date codes lol. This is how they tell you your car needs replaced without making it unreliable, so you go buy a new Toyota. Also, the gears inside of refrigerator defrost timers in the 160 refrigerators we bought for an apartment complex. Shockingly, still mechanical. And one of the gears is date coded and has teeth made of a rubbery, disintegrating plastic around a regular nylon wheel. The vast majority of the timers failed in a two years window. At 7-8 years. The cheap replacement timers have no such nonsense and I’ve never seen one fail. Most people just would have replaced the cheap apartment fridge. This is just some of what I’ve personally seen. But you are right, I’m just some guy on the internet, I could be just making this up. And corporations would never make things with life limitations to make more money. Surely. I mean, that would be like a subscription model! Ridiculous!

TheRealDunkirk 4y ago

When I was in engineering school 35 years ago, the "joke" was that our job was to design a car that ran perfectly until its warranty expired, and then, poof!, turned into a pile of dust. I didn't realize this actually became a science. Good grief. Of COURSE it did. Someone should make an expose about this stuff, and sell it to a news program.