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> I mean even at Google (on a different team) I was a "technical lead" in my 20s, and let me tell you, I had noooo business leading anything technical of any im

by _gabe_ 4y ago

> I mean even at Google (on a different team) I was a "technical lead" in my 20s, and let me tell you, I had noooo business leading anything technical of any importance. But this is very common! We would never accept this in other fields. Would you live in a house built entirely by junior carpenters in their late 20s who built one or two houses that barely stood up? Would you drive cars designed and built by junior engineers? I find this kind of funny, because this is what happens right? I was under the assumption that architects typically design the building plans and do all the engineering, and a construction crew (which can consist of people mainly in their 20s) will build those plans under the supervision of the lead engineers/architects. So, in the same way that many senior software engineers don't write much code, don't architects/civil engineers typically refrain from using power tools to build the actual building? If this is the case, then software engineering is very akin to other engineering disciplines in this regard. I feel like the author of this tweet is conflating craftsmen with senior leads. A craftsmen is somebody I would expect to have been working with the medium for 10+ years, and continues honing their craft throughout the years. Whereas engineers and architects are typically more concerned with the abstract ideas and overall outcome. An engineer/architect can be a craftsman, but I don't believe they need to be synonymous.

nso95 4y ago
Well an early career civil engineer isn't building the actual structures either
aboodman 4y ago
Not at all. Every construction project has a site lead, usually in their 30s or 40s who has decades of experience.
suzzer99 4y ago
A software architect who doesn't code anymore is worse than useless in all of my experience. They're flimflam salespeople who build PowerPoints full of buzzwords that aren't even necessary, and then delegate everything to developers who actually code to try to build their Frankenstein contraptions. "But we have to have websockets, it's in the presentation!"
- koonsolo 4y ago
  As a software architect, I agree with your statement. Diving into the code is essential for the job.
- abandonliberty 4y ago
  A big part of the problem here is people who become architects because they're bad at code. I agree that practice is important, but it's surprising how slowly competency degrades. Not having coded in years, I always check with my lead dev or architect when something the team's doing doesn't make sense to me. 95% of the time, it doesn't make sense to them either. I'm still confused that this number is so high.
throwaway892238 4y ago
> I was under the assumption that architects typically design the building plans and do all the engineering, and a construction crew (which can consist of people mainly in their 20s) will build those plans under the supervision of the lead engineers/architects. Draftsmen can also draw up the plans rather than an architect. There are different educational requirements as well as trade requirements before each can begin practicing said trade. (You can't just call yourself an architect just because your last employer gave you that title! both require professional licenses too.) Plans are approved by a city official and permits are given. A contractor is hired to build based on the plans, and they hire subcontractors. The result often has to change due to unforeseen circumstances, and usually those changes don't result in a redesign. If the contractor sucks balls, the result will be a tire fire unfit for disaster relief housing. If the contractor is good, nearly everything will go as expected, it will be delivered on time and on budget. In between those, a lot of shit gets swept under the rug.
seadan83 4y ago
I think the issue is that a lot of those "high level" decisions are also actually made at the code level. It is more analogous to an architect being a city planner, and coders are creating entire buildings (and not just installing the dry wall, but electrical, layout, elevators, plumbing, earthquake stability, etc)

by _gabe_ 4y ago

nso95 4y ago

Well an early career civil engineer isn't building the actual structures either

aboodman 4y ago

Not at all. Every construction project has a site lead, usually in their 30s or 40s who has decades of experience.

suzzer99 4y ago

A software architect who doesn't code anymore is worse than useless in all of my experience. They're flimflam salespeople who build PowerPoints full of buzzwords that aren't even necessary, and then delegate everything to developers who actually code to try to build their Frankenstein contraptions. "But we have to have websockets, it's in the presentation!"

koonsolo 4y ago
As a software architect, I agree with your statement. Diving into the code is essential for the job.
abandonliberty 4y ago
A big part of the problem here is people who become architects because they're bad at code. I agree that practice is important, but it's surprising how slowly competency degrades. Not having coded in years, I always check with my lead dev or architect when something the team's doing doesn't make sense to me. 95% of the time, it doesn't make sense to them either. I'm still confused that this number is so high.

throwaway892238 4y ago

> I was under the assumption that architects typically design the building plans and do all the engineering, and a construction crew (which can consist of people mainly in their 20s) will build those plans under the supervision of the lead engineers/architects. Draftsmen can also draw up the plans rather than an architect. There are different educational requirements as well as trade requirements before each can begin practicing said trade. (You can't just call yourself an architect just because your last employer gave you that title! both require professional licenses too.) Plans are approved by a city official and permits are given. A contractor is hired to build based on the plans, and they hire subcontractors. The result often has to change due to unforeseen circumstances, and usually those changes don't result in a redesign. If the contractor sucks balls, the result will be a tire fire unfit for disaster relief housing. If the contractor is good, nearly everything will go as expected, it will be delivered on time and on budget. In between those, a lot of shit gets swept under the rug.

seadan83 4y ago

I think the issue is that a lot of those "high level" decisions are also actually made at the code level. It is more analogous to an architect being a city planner, and coders are creating entire buildings (and not just installing the dry wall, but electrical, layout, elevators, plumbing, earthquake stability, etc)