4 ms·

Agreed. It's not always straightforward but I also feel there is a disconnect when on the one hand people say the answer to worker's poor pay is "Unions!" and

by mc32 4y ago

Agreed. It's not always straightforward but I also feel there is a disconnect when on the one hand people say the answer to worker's poor pay is "Unions!" and then on the other hand they want cheap things and also say that people have a right to cheaper things because that improves quality of life through increased purchasing power... Well, that's true if you have a professional white collared job. If you're in the lower middle class or in the working class... offshoring to cheaper locations is going to hurt the working class because now they are out of a job or have fewer choice jobs --their job market as a worker has no power --you want to get paid more, great, we'll ship production to Mexico or China. What, you want better pay for being a janitor? Great, we're getting cheap labor from unregulated guest workers and you're out of luck.

hayst4ck 4y ago
Unions aren't about more wages. Unions are about checking owner/capitalist/CEO power. Why does the CEO get paid 10-100x more than the lowest paid worker despite working the same number of hours a day? That's the question unions aim to solve. This puzzle revolves around power. Power is the ability to execute force or inflict pleasure or pain. A CEO is clearly capable of painful force against their unskilled labor. A CEO can make it so someone has a harder time housing themselves, getting medical care, or feeding their children. But what power does unskilled labor have over their CEOs? Virtually none individually. So we see this reality reflected directly in wages. Unskilled labor gets paid the minimum because they have no power, and CEO's get incredible wages because they have the power to demand them. This "agreement" is not mutual consent, but fundamentally exploitation. It's even more so exploitation when labor is sent to these poor countries. Unions are the answer to the puzzle of "how does an unskilled laborer exercise power/prevent themselves from being exploited." Through collective action a union can cause the CEO pain and put a check on their otherwise unchecked power. In this way individuals are no longer powerless but have earned a seat at the negotiating table. China did exactly this. They became exploited, nurtured dependence on the exploitation, and now use manufacturing's dependence on China as well as state level collective bargaining as a cudgul to execute their imperialist will on countries like Taiwan. If you do not have the ability to commit great violence you are not peaceful, you are harmless. If you do not have the ability to execute power, you do not make agreements, you follow commands. I personally don't understand how unions are not seen as American as the 2nd amendment. Unions are as important to preventing capitalist exploitation as guns are to preventing colonial/fascist exploitation.
- lostapathy 4y ago
  > Why does the CEO get paid 10-100x more than the lowest paid worker despite working the same number of hours a day? Honestly I wouldn’t want to work at a company (of any size) where the CEO was only worth 10x what the lowest paid janitor makes.
  - beholdamerica 4y ago
    I've worked and still work for such CEOs in Australia, where the minimum wage is quite high and CEOs of small and medium companies aren't all quadrillionaires. It's perfectly fine. I actually value the work a janitor does more than some of my colleagues, in terms of cleaning vs. creating messes.
  - thejohnconway 4y ago
    Why?
    - lostapathy 4y ago
      If you assume the lowest paid employees are going to be close to minimum wage, and you cap the CEO at 10x that, that's not a hell of a lot of ceiling.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- ufmace 4y ago
  I see that point, which is why I'm not entirely against unions, but they have their downsides too. Unionization has brought about some very beneficial improvements in working conditions and worker benefits and rights. But unions that get too big and powerful are often just as bad in different ways. They tend to make pay increases and promotions based solely on seniority instead of any measure of actual skill or work ethic, demand adherence to finicky rules about exactly who is allowed to do what work when, lose interest in representing individual workers when they don't fit the mold exactly, be just fine with driving business into bankruptcy or non-competitiveness with international competition, and generally foster an adversarial relationship between workers and management.

by mc32 4y ago

hayst4ck 4y ago

Unions aren't about more wages. Unions are about checking owner/capitalist/CEO power. Why does the CEO get paid 10-100x more than the lowest paid worker despite working the same number of hours a day? That's the question unions aim to solve. This puzzle revolves around power. Power is the ability to execute force or inflict pleasure or pain. A CEO is clearly capable of painful force against their unskilled labor. A CEO can make it so someone has a harder time housing themselves, getting medical care, or feeding their children. But what power does unskilled labor have over their CEOs? Virtually none individually. So we see this reality reflected directly in wages. Unskilled labor gets paid the minimum because they have no power, and CEO's get incredible wages because they have the power to demand them. This "agreement" is not mutual consent, but fundamentally exploitation. It's even more so exploitation when labor is sent to these poor countries. Unions are the answer to the puzzle of "how does an unskilled laborer exercise power/prevent themselves from being exploited." Through collective action a union can cause the CEO pain and put a check on their otherwise unchecked power. In this way individuals are no longer powerless but have earned a seat at the negotiating table. China did exactly this. They became exploited, nurtured dependence on the exploitation, and now use manufacturing's dependence on China as well as state level collective bargaining as a cudgul to execute their imperialist will on countries like Taiwan. If you do not have the ability to commit great violence you are not peaceful, you are harmless. If you do not have the ability to execute power, you do not make agreements, you follow commands. I personally don't understand how unions are not seen as American as the 2nd amendment. Unions are as important to preventing capitalist exploitation as guns are to preventing colonial/fascist exploitation.

lostapathy 4y ago
> Why does the CEO get paid 10-100x more than the lowest paid worker despite working the same number of hours a day? Honestly I wouldn’t want to work at a company (of any size) where the CEO was only worth 10x what the lowest paid janitor makes.
- beholdamerica 4y ago
  I've worked and still work for such CEOs in Australia, where the minimum wage is quite high and CEOs of small and medium companies aren't all quadrillionaires. It's perfectly fine. I actually value the work a janitor does more than some of my colleagues, in terms of cleaning vs. creating messes.
- thejohnconway 4y ago
  Why?
  - lostapathy 4y ago
    If you assume the lowest paid employees are going to be close to minimum wage, and you cap the CEO at 10x that, that's not a hell of a lot of ceiling.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
ufmace 4y ago
I see that point, which is why I'm not entirely against unions, but they have their downsides too. Unionization has brought about some very beneficial improvements in working conditions and worker benefits and rights. But unions that get too big and powerful are often just as bad in different ways. They tend to make pay increases and promotions based solely on seniority instead of any measure of actual skill or work ethic, demand adherence to finicky rules about exactly who is allowed to do what work when, lose interest in representing individual workers when they don't fit the mold exactly, be just fine with driving business into bankruptcy or non-competitiveness with international competition, and generally foster an adversarial relationship between workers and management.