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> Navigating with a map and compass is a difficult skill that takes a lot of practise That's a serious exaggeration. Navigating with a map and compass was taug

> Navigating with a map and compass is a difficult skill that takes a lot of practise That's a serious exaggeration. Navigating with a map and compass was taught to 10-year-old kids in elementary school when I was that age, and then it was practiced a few times every year. Probably to ensure that men didn't waste too much time learning basic skills in mandatory military service.

daleharvey 4y ago
I wasn't talking about how to orient a map, I was speaking about traversing mountains where being metres off route is potentially fatal with little to no visibility. Saying that is difficult is not exagerating.
- ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
  that seems like it's outside of the scope of "extremely incapable hikers who just want to go 1 route from A to B with no danger" unless there's a super chill trail or something
- throw827474737 4y ago
  And there you would tell the average joe: Use GPS and you can do it!! Please not!??
withinboredom 4y ago
Def learned this skill in the army. Still count my steps as a habit. I can tell you how many kilometers I walk, and it is usually almost what my watch says I walked. I’m still not sure which one is more correct.
lmc 4y ago
> That's a serious exaggeration. It really isn't. I did all that as a kid and still get hopelessly lost. Source: Experienced hiker, backpacker and mountain runner, over several continents.
- haswell 4y ago
  The trouble here is that now we have two opposing anecdotes. Makes me think there is more to this. I suspect there are other major variables in play. I get hopelessly lost. My brother is exactly the opposite. He has special awareness and a sense of direction that is natural and innate. I think my issue is Aphantasia. This makes me think the training is both reasonable and natural for some, and extremely difficult for others. Pre-technology, tracking/navigation was a highly valued skillset, and seemingly evidence that some people were just much better at it than others if accounts of famous trackers/navigators are to be believed.
  - samatman 4y ago
    Orienteering is a sport, people do it competitively. That implies that, while talent for it varies, it's difficult to do well.
    - junofan 4y ago
      Come on, we teach it in cub scouts.
    - MichaelCollins 4y ago
      Riding bicycles is also a sport, but children learn how to do it well enough. Orienteering as a sport is done for speed, precision, or optimal route planning. The basics of knowing how to use a map and compass and figuring out roughly where you are can be (and is) taught to children.
    - prawn 4y ago
      I've done a sport which is like orienteering in rougher terrain and generally for a longer period (24 hour events). You're navigating by moonlight or with headlamps for a reasonable portion of the event. I've never felt that the compass and map aspect is the difficult bit that defines the top competitors - they win because they run for longer, pick a better overall route strategy, can freelance by reading contours in rugged terrain, etc. You usually get lost because you make personal interpretations of landscape (is this the fourth watercourse since the knoll, or the fifth?) rather than mess up with the compass. You compete as pairs or more, so you always confirm compass bearings with each other, then confirm a target on the landscape. Up thread, someone talks about low visibility in fog, but it's probably not too different from using a headlamp. You pick a bush or a stick if you have to, and try not to take your eyes off it.
reportingsjr 4y ago
Navigating with a map and compass on a well worn, maintained trail is one thing. Using a map and compass in an area with numerous social trails, unofficial/unmarked trails, animal paths, etc is a different beast. Especially if you're in an area where it is either difficult to see landmarks, such as in a heavily forested gorge area, or there are minimal landmarks. Last month I took a trip to the swiss alps, and planned out a route with a topo map to try and link up some minor peaks off trail. Got to the first peak and realized the section I thought was a fairly steep, maybe tricky 3rd class, was actually well in to 4th class terrain and I had no chance. All because I misread the map!
- AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
  > Using a map and compass in an area with numerous social trails, unofficial/unmarked trails, animal paths, etc is a different beast Sure, it's different, but it's hardly difficult. I was a boy scout and was doing it regularly at 10 years old. The scoutmasters would hide caches of things (candy/toys/etc) in the woods somewhere and we were given compasses + paper maps only, not that there was anything else we would have reasonably had back in those days.
  - s0rce 4y ago
    I'm pretty experienced and if you lose track of where you are it can be very difficult to find yourself with a map and compass, often requiring significant moving around. This is particularly true in poor visibility or when everything is covered in snow. If you keep your bearings and know where you are (which you really need to when relying on a map and compass) then I agree its not terrible to navigate.
    - jfoutz 4y ago
      100% yup, it's surprisingly easy to not know where you are. I was never much of a scout, but the best advice I ever got was go downhill. If you find water, follow the water down. People live downhill. people use water. Finding somebody, anybody, means food and shelter. There are a handful of box canons in the world where this doesn't work, but like, you should know that there is one nearby before the outset. And even if you fall into the box canyon trap, you know where you are. Yeah, for any casual hiker that goes way off into the woods, first, you're and idiot. Second, why are you wearing cotton? Third, go downhill.
throwawaysleep 4y ago
If something needs to be taught in class and practiced several times annually, it is a relatively expensive skill. A lot more expensive than using a GPS.
sandworm101 4y ago
It depends on terrain. I hiked/climber in BC for a decade pre-gps. We carried maps but rarely ever used them for navigation, as opposed to planning. Mountain peaks on the horizon (real mountains, not UK hills) made navigation very intuitive. Even in zero visibility, the slope of the terrain keeps you orientated. Sound is also a huge aspect. One can "feel" a forrest through the fog because it sucks up sound, as opposed to rock mountains that echo.
seer 4y ago
That form of navigating is sufficiently challenging that it is a sport in its own right - orienteering. There is no “navigate by gps” sport, because that is the easy one.
ARandomerDude 4y ago
When I was in the military they would drop us off by vehicle or helicopter at some unknown spot in the woods, give us a map and compass, not tell us where we were starting, and tell us to collect stamps at certain waypoints within a given amount of time. It's much harder than you think if you start out lost.
denkmoon 4y ago
>Navigating with a map and compass was taught to 10-year-old kids in elementary school when I was that age, and then it was practiced a few times every year. When I was in school, in the 90s and 00s, in Australia, we did this maybe a handful of times throughout my entire education. Not a single time that I can recall we actually managed to navigate correctly. Theoretically navigating with a map and compass is not hard, but I sure as shit would not want my life depending on my ability to do so.
- kurthr 4y ago
  What was the declination on your compass set to? Navigating with a low resolution map without a good view of peaks/valleys is hard enough... but if you don't realize magnetic north is off (or correct the wrong direction), it's easy to end up lost.
- mbeex 4y ago
  > Theoretically navigating with a map and compass is not hard, but I sure as shit would not want my life depending on my ability to do so. Would you rather rely on your phone that hasn't been charged for two days? Actually, the situation is not even a trade-off. There is no dichotomy. When you use both, you simply gain a convenient extra layer of redundancy.
watwut 4y ago
> Navigating with a map and compass was taught to 10-year-old kids in elementary school Yeah, but most of them still consistently sucked at it. The elementary school terrain was picked so that it is as easy as possible, with zero possibility to get lost or confused.
bootlegboots 4y ago
lol i did geology for my undergrad which required making geologic maps of areas by map and compass. My 2 cents is that knowing generally where you are when it's good visibility and there are clear dinstinct landmarks is easy peasy (eg there is a road that generally goes east west, and I know it's south of me, there is a single hill that is generally in that direction and a lake I can see in that direction means I'm probably in this area). Knowing exactly where you are when there is not good visibility is significantly more challenging because you need to keep accurate track of exactly what direction and how far you have gone (with some adjustment for elevation) because your current location is constantly being calculated relative to your previous location. The math is easy peasy, it's just a lot to mentally track for a sustained period of time especially if you've been out all day and conditions arent great. As soon as you lose track of your paces, you just gotta hope someone in the group remembers or hope that there is some reference point that you can see otherwise that map is gonna be looking pretty wonky lol.

daleharvey 4y ago

I wasn't talking about how to orient a map, I was speaking about traversing mountains where being metres off route is potentially fatal with little to no visibility. Saying that is difficult is not exagerating.

ImPostingOnHN 4y ago
that seems like it's outside of the scope of "extremely incapable hikers who just want to go 1 route from A to B with no danger" unless there's a super chill trail or something
throw827474737 4y ago
And there you would tell the average joe: Use GPS and you can do it!! Please not!??

withinboredom 4y ago

Def learned this skill in the army. Still count my steps as a habit. I can tell you how many kilometers I walk, and it is usually almost what my watch says I walked. I’m still not sure which one is more correct.

lmc 4y ago

> That's a serious exaggeration. It really isn't. I did all that as a kid and still get hopelessly lost. Source: Experienced hiker, backpacker and mountain runner, over several continents.

haswell 4y ago
The trouble here is that now we have two opposing anecdotes. Makes me think there is more to this. I suspect there are other major variables in play. I get hopelessly lost. My brother is exactly the opposite. He has special awareness and a sense of direction that is natural and innate. I think my issue is Aphantasia. This makes me think the training is both reasonable and natural for some, and extremely difficult for others. Pre-technology, tracking/navigation was a highly valued skillset, and seemingly evidence that some people were just much better at it than others if accounts of famous trackers/navigators are to be believed.
- samatman 4y ago
  Orienteering is a sport, people do it competitively. That implies that, while talent for it varies, it's difficult to do well.
  - junofan 4y ago
    Come on, we teach it in cub scouts.
  - MichaelCollins 4y ago
    Riding bicycles is also a sport, but children learn how to do it well enough. Orienteering as a sport is done for speed, precision, or optimal route planning. The basics of knowing how to use a map and compass and figuring out roughly where you are can be (and is) taught to children.
  - prawn 4y ago
    I've done a sport which is like orienteering in rougher terrain and generally for a longer period (24 hour events). You're navigating by moonlight or with headlamps for a reasonable portion of the event. I've never felt that the compass and map aspect is the difficult bit that defines the top competitors - they win because they run for longer, pick a better overall route strategy, can freelance by reading contours in rugged terrain, etc. You usually get lost because you make personal interpretations of landscape (is this the fourth watercourse since the knoll, or the fifth?) rather than mess up with the compass. You compete as pairs or more, so you always confirm compass bearings with each other, then confirm a target on the landscape. Up thread, someone talks about low visibility in fog, but it's probably not too different from using a headlamp. You pick a bush or a stick if you have to, and try not to take your eyes off it.

reportingsjr 4y ago

Navigating with a map and compass on a well worn, maintained trail is one thing. Using a map and compass in an area with numerous social trails, unofficial/unmarked trails, animal paths, etc is a different beast. Especially if you're in an area where it is either difficult to see landmarks, such as in a heavily forested gorge area, or there are minimal landmarks. Last month I took a trip to the swiss alps, and planned out a route with a topo map to try and link up some minor peaks off trail. Got to the first peak and realized the section I thought was a fairly steep, maybe tricky 3rd class, was actually well in to 4th class terrain and I had no chance. All because I misread the map!

AdamJacobMuller 4y ago
> Using a map and compass in an area with numerous social trails, unofficial/unmarked trails, animal paths, etc is a different beast Sure, it's different, but it's hardly difficult. I was a boy scout and was doing it regularly at 10 years old. The scoutmasters would hide caches of things (candy/toys/etc) in the woods somewhere and we were given compasses + paper maps only, not that there was anything else we would have reasonably had back in those days.
- s0rce 4y ago
  I'm pretty experienced and if you lose track of where you are it can be very difficult to find yourself with a map and compass, often requiring significant moving around. This is particularly true in poor visibility or when everything is covered in snow. If you keep your bearings and know where you are (which you really need to when relying on a map and compass) then I agree its not terrible to navigate.
  - jfoutz 4y ago
    100% yup, it's surprisingly easy to not know where you are. I was never much of a scout, but the best advice I ever got was go downhill. If you find water, follow the water down. People live downhill. people use water. Finding somebody, anybody, means food and shelter. There are a handful of box canons in the world where this doesn't work, but like, you should know that there is one nearby before the outset. And even if you fall into the box canyon trap, you know where you are. Yeah, for any casual hiker that goes way off into the woods, first, you're and idiot. Second, why are you wearing cotton? Third, go downhill.

throwawaysleep 4y ago

If something needs to be taught in class and practiced several times annually, it is a relatively expensive skill. A lot more expensive than using a GPS.

sandworm101 4y ago

It depends on terrain. I hiked/climber in BC for a decade pre-gps. We carried maps but rarely ever used them for navigation, as opposed to planning. Mountain peaks on the horizon (real mountains, not UK hills) made navigation very intuitive. Even in zero visibility, the slope of the terrain keeps you orientated. Sound is also a huge aspect. One can "feel" a forrest through the fog because it sucks up sound, as opposed to rock mountains that echo.

seer 4y ago

That form of navigating is sufficiently challenging that it is a sport in its own right - orienteering. There is no “navigate by gps” sport, because that is the easy one.

ARandomerDude 4y ago

When I was in the military they would drop us off by vehicle or helicopter at some unknown spot in the woods, give us a map and compass, not tell us where we were starting, and tell us to collect stamps at certain waypoints within a given amount of time. It's much harder than you think if you start out lost.

denkmoon 4y ago

>Navigating with a map and compass was taught to 10-year-old kids in elementary school when I was that age, and then it was practiced a few times every year. When I was in school, in the 90s and 00s, in Australia, we did this maybe a handful of times throughout my entire education. Not a single time that I can recall we actually managed to navigate correctly. Theoretically navigating with a map and compass is not hard, but I sure as shit would not want my life depending on my ability to do so.

kurthr 4y ago
What was the declination on your compass set to? Navigating with a low resolution map without a good view of peaks/valleys is hard enough... but if you don't realize magnetic north is off (or correct the wrong direction), it's easy to end up lost.
mbeex 4y ago
> Theoretically navigating with a map and compass is not hard, but I sure as shit would not want my life depending on my ability to do so. Would you rather rely on your phone that hasn't been charged for two days? Actually, the situation is not even a trade-off. There is no dichotomy. When you use both, you simply gain a convenient extra layer of redundancy.

watwut 4y ago

> Navigating with a map and compass was taught to 10-year-old kids in elementary school Yeah, but most of them still consistently sucked at it. The elementary school terrain was picked so that it is as easy as possible, with zero possibility to get lost or confused.

bootlegboots 4y ago

lol i did geology for my undergrad which required making geologic maps of areas by map and compass. My 2 cents is that knowing generally where you are when it's good visibility and there are clear dinstinct landmarks is easy peasy (eg there is a road that generally goes east west, and I know it's south of me, there is a single hill that is generally in that direction and a lake I can see in that direction means I'm probably in this area). Knowing exactly where you are when there is not good visibility is significantly more challenging because you need to keep accurate track of exactly what direction and how far you have gone (with some adjustment for elevation) because your current location is constantly being calculated relative to your previous location. The math is easy peasy, it's just a lot to mentally track for a sustained period of time especially if you've been out all day and conditions arent great. As soon as you lose track of your paces, you just gotta hope someone in the group remembers or hope that there is some reference point that you can see otherwise that map is gonna be looking pretty wonky lol.