12 ms·

planned obsolence out there I don't think it is planned obsolescence, it is just a race to the bottom on price. At $30, an immersion blender can't have metal g

by jibe 4y ago

planned obsolence out there I don't think it is planned obsolescence, it is just a race to the bottom on price. At $30, an immersion blender can't have metal gears. Most people value cheapness more than quality, so we get cheap junky products. Nylon gears are a travesty, but most people prefer replacing crap to paying 7x for the Vitamix.

CoastalCoder 4y ago
This isn't true of me. I value quality and price. Unfortunately, while price is clearly stated, poor quality is often hidden.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
thats fine, but then why do I get the same problems when i pay $200?
BlargMcLarg 4y ago
>Most people value cheapness more than quality, so we get cheap junky products. Well, it would help tremendously if costs per month/year/lifetime were more obvious. A lot of people just don't know how long certain appliances are supposed to last at what price points comparatively. 7x is only a hefty price tag upfront when you know it will pay for itself over time, but even that is no longer certain.
- jtbayly 4y ago
  How many years would you divide by as a “lifetime”? That’s your new failure year that lots of people would prefer for it to last longer than.
- someguydave 4y ago
  Right, judging long-term product value is like trying to win against the casino on their own slot machines.
lambdasquirrel 4y ago
Disclaimer: I have a KitchenAid blender. I only paid 5x for it, so I didn't have to pay the Vitamix guerrilla marketing part of the deal. But yes, expect something several multiples over the nickel-and-dimed stuff. The high-end blender lines of both brands are made domestically, and rate at the top in Consumer Reports. I can vouch that both are pretty quiet in operation, for what are essentially food-violence machines. Just because it's a German brand like Bosch doesn't mean it's made in Germany, from quality parts, so, buyer beware.
K0balt 4y ago
Plenty of planned obsolescence. I won’t go into my rant but my brother is an engineer who is paid very handsomely to make sure that products outlast their warranty period but then fail predictably. He engineers special plastics that degrade rapidly after 5 or 6 years, gears that fail after 10th no later than 12 years, bearing assemblies that will leak but not fail between 4000 to 5500 hours, etc. Often the components he designs cost more to manufacture that components that would last much, much longer. . To build a pump that will 99 percent make it to 3000 hours, that means half will make it to 9000 hours or more. Unless you really, really make sure that 90 percent will also fail by 4000 hours. It’s not easy to do. Some products actually incorporate extra parts such as batteries that serve no other purpose than to cause the unit to degrade after a certain time (honeywell thermostats I’m looking at you … their round thermostat includes a lithium cell. When the lithium cell degrades, the at328p processor switches to a limping mode that regulates +/- 10 degrees, but never less than a little over freezing. The (soldered) battery just goes through a resistor to a GPIO pin. It’s just a chemical timer. It serves no other purpose than to make the unit need to be replaced.) I could go on and on and on, but stuff is definitely designed to fail in predictable ways in a predermined timeframe. Considerable expense is invested in this behavior.
- eru 4y ago
  What kind of battery goes into the Honeywell thermostat you are talking about? Is it one you have to buy from Honeywell, or an off-the-shelf part? If the latter, how does it help Honeywell that you have to replace it?
  - K0balt 4y ago
    It is an off the shelf part. It is (at least in the models I have worked with) possible, but not easy to replace, as the holder is blocked buy other components and the thermostat is not designed to be disassembled. The existence of the battery is undocumented. Since we had over a hundred of these deployed in an apartment complex, when they started failing I carefully characterized their behavior. It just makes them go wonky when it is removed or dies. The at328p functions fine without it, there is no RTC or anything that needs a battery., and the chip is not powered by the battery when power is removed. In fact, there is no discharge from the battery when power is off. The at328p has nonvolatile eeprom and flash storage. Interestingly, the wonky behavior it exhibits is the same (but doesn’t go below 40 degrees (f) ) as an old electromechanical one failing lol.
II2II 4y ago
Metal is not a panacea, and it can often lead to misleading marketing. Different metals wear at different rates and poor design can still lead to premature failure. Heck the viscosity of the lubricant was the cited reason for the failure of the compressor. Lubricated devices also need maintenance, otherwise the surfaces the lubricant is intended to protect will wear. The properties of lubricants can also change and cause moving parts to cease. Engineering is both easy and incredibly difficult. It is relatively easy to design something that does a particular task (at least for many of the applications being discussed here). It is incredibly difficult to design something that does its job well or last for a long time.
- CamperBob2 4y ago
  Engineering is both easy and incredibly difficult. It is relatively easy to design something that does a particular task (at least for many of the applications being discussed here). It is incredibly difficult to design something that does its job well or last for a long time. No, that's relatively easy as well. What's incredibly difficult is doing so while keeping the BOM cost under control in a competitive market. Recall the classic saying, "Any idiot can design a bridge that will stand up. It takes an engineer to design a bridge that will barely stand up."
  - somewhat_drunk 4y ago
    Indeed. His engineer brother is essentially designing a component that can barely function, just like a bridge, because resources are finite. I have never seen any example of 'planned obsolescence' which was anything more than giving the consumer what the consumer wants. Modern economy is essentially the peak optimization of cost vs utility, i.e. value maximization.
    - rowanG077 4y ago
      According to the poster the components their brother designs are often more expensive then the standard ones. Precisely because it takes a higher tolerance to fail between a tight time window. So it is in fact the opposite of resources are finite. They are spending more to squeeze the consumer.
2muchcoffeeman 4y ago
Well, you want more people to buy your product so you get growth year over year. You can't do that with a basic widget that will last 10++ years. Otherwise your growth would plateau to the natural population growth rate and there would be a thriving 2nd hand market because your stuff rarely breaks. Adding complex electronic features is an obvious choice now. You can just stop providing updates or the electronics will fail. Cheaper things aren't necessarily bad either. You don't want things like fridges and blenders to be items only the rich can afford and less robust things are probably fine if it was clear under what conditions you can use the item to make it last and if the item was easily repairable. Lastly, I don't think you can blame the manufacturers alone either. I know people who don't like used things even if they are still good and will always buy new.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
ornornor 4y ago
I suspect lots of people value cheapness when there is no way to tell whether the premium actually reflects quality. This is for example why flying commercial is such a miserable experience: people will look for the cheapest ticket that gets them to their destination because the whole thing is like being treated like cattle. Why then should you pay a single cent more for the same shitty experience? Airlines that used to offer a slightly better experience have figured this out and also treat you like cattle now so they can also offer the route for a low or lower price. This is not unique to airlines, and this is my default mode of purchasing things because I’ve been burnt too many times. Unless I know for sure that X brand is much more durable and repairable than another, I’ll always go for the cheapest I can find that meets my needs.

by jibe 4y ago

CoastalCoder 4y ago

This isn't true of me. I value quality and price. Unfortunately, while price is clearly stated, poor quality is often hidden.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

thats fine, but then why do I get the same problems when i pay $200?

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

>Most people value cheapness more than quality, so we get cheap junky products. Well, it would help tremendously if costs per month/year/lifetime were more obvious. A lot of people just don't know how long certain appliances are supposed to last at what price points comparatively. 7x is only a hefty price tag upfront when you know it will pay for itself over time, but even that is no longer certain.

jtbayly 4y ago
How many years would you divide by as a “lifetime”? That’s your new failure year that lots of people would prefer for it to last longer than.
someguydave 4y ago
Right, judging long-term product value is like trying to win against the casino on their own slot machines.

lambdasquirrel 4y ago

Disclaimer: I have a KitchenAid blender. I only paid 5x for it, so I didn't have to pay the Vitamix guerrilla marketing part of the deal. But yes, expect something several multiples over the nickel-and-dimed stuff. The high-end blender lines of both brands are made domestically, and rate at the top in Consumer Reports. I can vouch that both are pretty quiet in operation, for what are essentially food-violence machines. Just because it's a German brand like Bosch doesn't mean it's made in Germany, from quality parts, so, buyer beware.

K0balt 4y ago

Plenty of planned obsolescence. I won’t go into my rant but my brother is an engineer who is paid very handsomely to make sure that products outlast their warranty period but then fail predictably. He engineers special plastics that degrade rapidly after 5 or 6 years, gears that fail after 10th no later than 12 years, bearing assemblies that will leak but not fail between 4000 to 5500 hours, etc. Often the components he designs cost more to manufacture that components that would last much, much longer. . To build a pump that will 99 percent make it to 3000 hours, that means half will make it to 9000 hours or more. Unless you really, really make sure that 90 percent will also fail by 4000 hours. It’s not easy to do. Some products actually incorporate extra parts such as batteries that serve no other purpose than to cause the unit to degrade after a certain time (honeywell thermostats I’m looking at you … their round thermostat includes a lithium cell. When the lithium cell degrades, the at328p processor switches to a limping mode that regulates +/- 10 degrees, but never less than a little over freezing. The (soldered) battery just goes through a resistor to a GPIO pin. It’s just a chemical timer. It serves no other purpose than to make the unit need to be replaced.) I could go on and on and on, but stuff is definitely designed to fail in predictable ways in a predermined timeframe. Considerable expense is invested in this behavior.

eru 4y ago
What kind of battery goes into the Honeywell thermostat you are talking about? Is it one you have to buy from Honeywell, or an off-the-shelf part? If the latter, how does it help Honeywell that you have to replace it?
- K0balt 4y ago
  It is an off the shelf part. It is (at least in the models I have worked with) possible, but not easy to replace, as the holder is blocked buy other components and the thermostat is not designed to be disassembled. The existence of the battery is undocumented. Since we had over a hundred of these deployed in an apartment complex, when they started failing I carefully characterized their behavior. It just makes them go wonky when it is removed or dies. The at328p functions fine without it, there is no RTC or anything that needs a battery., and the chip is not powered by the battery when power is removed. In fact, there is no discharge from the battery when power is off. The at328p has nonvolatile eeprom and flash storage. Interestingly, the wonky behavior it exhibits is the same (but doesn’t go below 40 degrees (f) ) as an old electromechanical one failing lol.

II2II 4y ago

Metal is not a panacea, and it can often lead to misleading marketing. Different metals wear at different rates and poor design can still lead to premature failure. Heck the viscosity of the lubricant was the cited reason for the failure of the compressor. Lubricated devices also need maintenance, otherwise the surfaces the lubricant is intended to protect will wear. The properties of lubricants can also change and cause moving parts to cease. Engineering is both easy and incredibly difficult. It is relatively easy to design something that does a particular task (at least for many of the applications being discussed here). It is incredibly difficult to design something that does its job well or last for a long time.

CamperBob2 4y ago
Engineering is both easy and incredibly difficult. It is relatively easy to design something that does a particular task (at least for many of the applications being discussed here). It is incredibly difficult to design something that does its job well or last for a long time. No, that's relatively easy as well. What's incredibly difficult is doing so while keeping the BOM cost under control in a competitive market. Recall the classic saying, "Any idiot can design a bridge that will stand up. It takes an engineer to design a bridge that will barely stand up."
- somewhat_drunk 4y ago
  Indeed. His engineer brother is essentially designing a component that can barely function, just like a bridge, because resources are finite. I have never seen any example of 'planned obsolescence' which was anything more than giving the consumer what the consumer wants. Modern economy is essentially the peak optimization of cost vs utility, i.e. value maximization.
  - rowanG077 4y ago
    According to the poster the components their brother designs are often more expensive then the standard ones. Precisely because it takes a higher tolerance to fail between a tight time window. So it is in fact the opposite of resources are finite. They are spending more to squeeze the consumer.

2muchcoffeeman 4y ago

Well, you want more people to buy your product so you get growth year over year. You can't do that with a basic widget that will last 10++ years. Otherwise your growth would plateau to the natural population growth rate and there would be a thriving 2nd hand market because your stuff rarely breaks. Adding complex electronic features is an obvious choice now. You can just stop providing updates or the electronics will fail. Cheaper things aren't necessarily bad either. You don't want things like fridges and blenders to be items only the rich can afford and less robust things are probably fine if it was clear under what conditions you can use the item to make it last and if the item was easily repairable. Lastly, I don't think you can blame the manufacturers alone either. I know people who don't like used things even if they are still good and will always buy new.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ornornor 4y ago

I suspect lots of people value cheapness when there is no way to tell whether the premium actually reflects quality. This is for example why flying commercial is such a miserable experience: people will look for the cheapest ticket that gets them to their destination because the whole thing is like being treated like cattle. Why then should you pay a single cent more for the same shitty experience? Airlines that used to offer a slightly better experience have figured this out and also treat you like cattle now so they can also offer the route for a low or lower price. This is not unique to airlines, and this is my default mode of purchasing things because I’ve been burnt too many times. Unless I know for sure that X brand is much more durable and repairable than another, I’ll always go for the cheapest I can find that meets my needs.