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Without numbers it's really hard to say how good or bad these engineering choices were in regards to the consumer to come out on top or not. In my experience a

Without numbers it's really hard to say how good or bad these engineering choices were in regards to the consumer to come out on top or not. In my experience appliances are a lot more efficient and cheaper than they used to be. My new stainless steel fridge has much more capacity while using the same amount of power than the 20yo one it replaced (Which didn't actually fail, but the white coating was rusting all over the place). My HE washer doesn't fill the entire tub compared to the old upright ones, so my water heater is used less, and spins at ~1,200rpm, greatly reducing dry times for my electric dryer. The recessed lighting in my house went from 90 watts per bulb to 12 watts for LED, and saves me $$ on cooling when needed. My tankless water heater heats up only the water being used, no more, no less. I'm paying roughly 32¢/KW all-in (after taxes, fees etc.) for electricity in the Bay Area, so efficiency gains build up quickly over time. Anecdotally, the only issues I've had so far have been with poorly engineered Samsung refrigerators, where the fans would seize due to ice buildup, not mechanical wear.

nabakin 4y ago
> In my experience appliances are a lot more efficient and cheaper than they used to be. turbokinetic agrees modern refrigerators are more energy efficient but at the expense of longevity and not worth it > I am saying that this compressor, and its application, show clear engineering choices made, which sacrificed its life span in the name of some modicum of energy savings.
- ProfessorLayton 4y ago
  >turbokinetic agrees modern refrigerators are more energy efficient but at the expense of longevity and not worth it Without numbers to back up that claim, that's just their opinion, as is mine. I my experience the energy savings have been significant enough for that to not be a big concern. There may be an environmental argument here of course, but that's a separate argument than what consumers feel in their pocketbook.
  - nabakin 4y ago
    If our goal is to minimize cost (ignoring the environmental side of things), longevity must be taken into account. If energy savings at the expense of longevity truly makes refrigerators cheaper in the longterm then that's awesome, but I worry planned obsolescence is ruining the appliance market and increasing consumer expense.
    - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
      >energy savings at the expense of longevity I think we're in agreement, however, I don't think an analysis has been made either way to be able to make this claim. The old appliances you see could just be due to survivor bias, while the broken ones were unceremoniously disposed of. Perhaps the old appliances were simpler and cheaper to repair, but perhaps new appliances need less repairs in the first place. Without an actual analysis this is just speculation. A related example would be laptops and cell phones, which have become more complicated, less upgradable, and harder to repair over time (soldered parts, glue etc.). However, cell phones are now commonly waterproof, which has eliminated a major reason for replacement. Laptops basically have no moving parts other than the keyboard and screen hinge now, and stay useful much longer due to chips being really fast in the last decade.
  - juve1996 4y ago
    How much more energy efficient are they really? How much are you actually saving?
    - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
      Well, in the case of my refrigerator, I didn't do a 1:1 replacement. I got a much larger capacity one, about 30% more space, while not using any more energy (It actually uses less, but not really noticeable in my energy bill.) My energy company gave be a multi-hundred dollar rebate to upgrade to an HE washer, so it was objectively better for my wallet to upgrade. Now I'm using less water, gas, and electricity when doing laundry. About a few hundred a year less on top of the rebate I got upfront. The tankless water heater has no pilot light, so there's some savings there, but the real benefit was having unlimited hot water. Tankless water heaters are rated to last longer than tanks, allegedly, but I haven't had one long enough to know either way. Incandescent to LED was a no-brainer, each pair of LED lights was about $30 at costco and use 14% of the energy. They have already more than paid for themselves, not including the money saved by needing to run the AC less.

nabakin 4y ago

> In my experience appliances are a lot more efficient and cheaper than they used to be. turbokinetic agrees modern refrigerators are more energy efficient but at the expense of longevity and not worth it > I am saying that this compressor, and its application, show clear engineering choices made, which sacrificed its life span in the name of some modicum of energy savings.

ProfessorLayton 4y ago
>turbokinetic agrees modern refrigerators are more energy efficient but at the expense of longevity and not worth it Without numbers to back up that claim, that's just their opinion, as is mine. I my experience the energy savings have been significant enough for that to not be a big concern. There may be an environmental argument here of course, but that's a separate argument than what consumers feel in their pocketbook.
- nabakin 4y ago
  If our goal is to minimize cost (ignoring the environmental side of things), longevity must be taken into account. If energy savings at the expense of longevity truly makes refrigerators cheaper in the longterm then that's awesome, but I worry planned obsolescence is ruining the appliance market and increasing consumer expense.
  - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
    >energy savings at the expense of longevity I think we're in agreement, however, I don't think an analysis has been made either way to be able to make this claim. The old appliances you see could just be due to survivor bias, while the broken ones were unceremoniously disposed of. Perhaps the old appliances were simpler and cheaper to repair, but perhaps new appliances need less repairs in the first place. Without an actual analysis this is just speculation. A related example would be laptops and cell phones, which have become more complicated, less upgradable, and harder to repair over time (soldered parts, glue etc.). However, cell phones are now commonly waterproof, which has eliminated a major reason for replacement. Laptops basically have no moving parts other than the keyboard and screen hinge now, and stay useful much longer due to chips being really fast in the last decade.
- juve1996 4y ago
  How much more energy efficient are they really? How much are you actually saving?
  - ProfessorLayton 4y ago
    Well, in the case of my refrigerator, I didn't do a 1:1 replacement. I got a much larger capacity one, about 30% more space, while not using any more energy (It actually uses less, but not really noticeable in my energy bill.) My energy company gave be a multi-hundred dollar rebate to upgrade to an HE washer, so it was objectively better for my wallet to upgrade. Now I'm using less water, gas, and electricity when doing laundry. About a few hundred a year less on top of the rebate I got upfront. The tankless water heater has no pilot light, so there's some savings there, but the real benefit was having unlimited hot water. Tankless water heaters are rated to last longer than tanks, allegedly, but I haven't had one long enough to know either way. Incandescent to LED was a no-brainer, each pair of LED lights was about $30 at costco and use 14% of the energy. They have already more than paid for themselves, not including the money saved by needing to run the AC less.