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The complaint is that one could manufacture those more expensive high quality products at a larger quantity and, through scaling effects, one would achieve a lo

by est31 4y ago

The complaint is that one could manufacture those more expensive high quality products at a larger quantity and, through scaling effects, one would achieve a lower price, which would make them accessible to larger segments of the market. I suppose that would be the market "working". Instead you have manufacturers churning out tons of cheap shit that breaks quickly. I guess most customers don't know how quickly different household appliances break, so they also can't compare that together with price. They have to assume that the more expensive appliances are also higher quality, but how can you judge that as a non-expert? Household appliances are textbook examples of adoption s-curves, and in different phases, different rules apply for the market. Especially in the last phase of the s-curve, those manufacturers are hurt the most which build lasting products, because their own past customers, usually the best source for new purchases from their brand, don't buy from them any more because the need is still met by the still working product. So they either go bankrupt or get bought by one of the manufacturers that put in planned obsolescence and got tons of money from that, or they change their strategy before that happens.

AmericanChopper 4y ago
> The complaint is that one could manufacture those more expensive high quality products at a larger quantity and, through scaling effects, one would achieve a lower price, which would make them accessible to larger segments of the market. That complaint is immature and entirely self-interested. It’s almost always beneficial (except when there’s production shortages) to have a preference that is shared by large segments of the market. It’s not the systems fault if few people share your preferences.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > That complaint is immature That's a bit rich for you to write -> this thread is addressing a practical problem with consumer goods, and your post is a theoretical, spherical car in a vacuum description of how ideal market should work, and falls apart in the real world. If the model worked perfectly, we would never have problems with slave labour in supply chains because ~0% of consumers are willing to buy them. The fact that we do, indicated that consumers are not able to enforce their preferences, for example because companies lie with no consequences. And if they can lie about slave labour, then they can lie about anything else.
  - AmericanChopper 4y ago
    > this thread is addressing a practical problem with consumer goods The problem of selecting for quality is exactly what I am talking about, and it is very simple to accomplish. I do it myself routinely, so I know that it takes a bit more than 0 effort, but it is a very simple problem to manage, and anybody can do it. The actual immature complaint is that not enough people have the same preferences as you do. Which you just have to get over, and accept that you live on a planet with 7 billion other people, and a lot of them (no matter what they say), actually don’t care about a little bit of slave labor in the supply chain of their new TV.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      > lot of them (no matter what they say), actually don’t care about a little bit of slave labor in the supply chain of their new TV So we can't trust what consumers say they want, but we can trust what you say they wan't? What is the basis for this extraordinary claim? So far your argument reads a lot like 'market is infalliable, if it doeant serve your needs, its your fault. And even if you find it ever fails, it's your, the consumers fault too. No flaw in the system is possible'
      - AmericanChopper 4y ago
        > So we can't trust what consumers say they want, but we can trust what you say they wan't? I’m not saying they want anything. I’m saying that what they want is revealed by their choices and not how they might answer any particular question when prompted. In economics this is called a revealed preference.
        ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        > I’m saying that what they want is revealed by their choices You still have not addressed how does this square with lying. What should happen when I ask primark staff and they say 'there is no slave labour'? Is it also my responsibility to fly to Taiwan, break into the factory and defeat their security in a shootout, to find out that thwy use slave labour? At least I hope the state won't protect primarc in case I want to make sure they are not lying before I buy a t-shirt?
CamperBob2 4y ago
because their own past customers, usually the best source for new purchases from their brand, don't buy from them any more because the need is still met by the still working product Doesn't this neglect word of mouth? If you ask someone on HN, they will tell you to buy your vacuum cleaners and dishwashers from Miele and your washers and dryers from Speed Queen, budget permitting. To the extent that scales to the world at large, the quality manufacturers will take business away from their competitors who don't get recommended as often.

by est31 4y ago

AmericanChopper 4y ago

> The complaint is that one could manufacture those more expensive high quality products at a larger quantity and, through scaling effects, one would achieve a lower price, which would make them accessible to larger segments of the market. That complaint is immature and entirely self-interested. It’s almost always beneficial (except when there’s production shortages) to have a preference that is shared by large segments of the market. It’s not the systems fault if few people share your preferences.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> That complaint is immature That's a bit rich for you to write -> this thread is addressing a practical problem with consumer goods, and your post is a theoretical, spherical car in a vacuum description of how ideal market should work, and falls apart in the real world. If the model worked perfectly, we would never have problems with slave labour in supply chains because ~0% of consumers are willing to buy them. The fact that we do, indicated that consumers are not able to enforce their preferences, for example because companies lie with no consequences. And if they can lie about slave labour, then they can lie about anything else.
- AmericanChopper 4y ago
  > this thread is addressing a practical problem with consumer goods The problem of selecting for quality is exactly what I am talking about, and it is very simple to accomplish. I do it myself routinely, so I know that it takes a bit more than 0 effort, but it is a very simple problem to manage, and anybody can do it. The actual immature complaint is that not enough people have the same preferences as you do. Which you just have to get over, and accept that you live on a planet with 7 billion other people, and a lot of them (no matter what they say), actually don’t care about a little bit of slave labor in the supply chain of their new TV.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > lot of them (no matter what they say), actually don’t care about a little bit of slave labor in the supply chain of their new TV So we can't trust what consumers say they want, but we can trust what you say they wan't? What is the basis for this extraordinary claim? So far your argument reads a lot like 'market is infalliable, if it doeant serve your needs, its your fault. And even if you find it ever fails, it's your, the consumers fault too. No flaw in the system is possible'
    - AmericanChopper 4y ago
      > So we can't trust what consumers say they want, but we can trust what you say they wan't? I’m not saying they want anything. I’m saying that what they want is revealed by their choices and not how they might answer any particular question when prompted. In economics this is called a revealed preference.
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
        > I’m saying that what they want is revealed by their choices You still have not addressed how does this square with lying. What should happen when I ask primark staff and they say 'there is no slave labour'? Is it also my responsibility to fly to Taiwan, break into the factory and defeat their security in a shootout, to find out that thwy use slave labour? At least I hope the state won't protect primarc in case I want to make sure they are not lying before I buy a t-shirt?

CamperBob2 4y ago

because their own past customers, usually the best source for new purchases from their brand, don't buy from them any more because the need is still met by the still working product Doesn't this neglect word of mouth? If you ask someone on HN, they will tell you to buy your vacuum cleaners and dishwashers from Miele and your washers and dryers from Speed Queen, budget permitting. To the extent that scales to the world at large, the quality manufacturers will take business away from their competitors who don't get recommended as often.