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> The market is not working, we just have the tools to realize how badly it's broken. "The market" is not a single thing. It's an idea(ology) from economics,

> The market is not working, we just have the tools to realize how badly it's broken. "The market" is not a single thing. It's an idea(ology) from economics, and a cultural mythology, that vaguely intersect at some point. We all think we know what "The Market" is, supply, demand, competition and so on. It's existence and operation underwrites many a political argument. Then there is the reality: Walk in to a supermarket and "choose" from 20 different brands of tinned vegetable, grown in the same region, processed in a handful of factories ultimately owned by the same parent company. "Own" a movie, on a device that you don't actually control in any way, that you were effectively forced to purchase, with money you don't have. And so on.... So, in respectful mockery of Thatcher I say "There's no such thing as The Market" - not because I don't believe in the values of property, choice, competition, innovation.... but because we don't have these, and haven't for some time. The myth of "The Market" lives on the place of early (real) capitalism as we head toward "consumer communism".

Gordonjcp 4y ago
> respectful mockery of Thatcher There is no need to do anything "respectfully" of Thatcher. She should have been hanged. I wouldn't piss on her grave for fear the warmth would comfort her.
gruez 4y ago
> > The market is not working, we just have the tools to realize how badly it's broken. >"The market" is not a single thing. Who seriously think it is? I think most people here knows that "the market" doesn't refer to an actual thing or place, just like "the internet" doesn't refer to an actual actual thing or place.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > Who seriously think it is? Nobody. I'm not implying anyone is that stupid. It's obviously a figure of speech. Which you get, right?
triangleman83 4y ago
But there are choices, sometimes you're not conscious of the effect of your choice but it was made nonetheless. For your supermarket example, instead of going there you could go to a local farmer's market for those vegetables. It might cost more, but most expect higher quality there than at the supermarket. So there is another "market" option, you shouldn't just expect all your "market" options to be placed in convenient aisles at the grocery store. If you live in the city and have to drive over an hour to get to a farmer's market, well that was also a choice you made. Perhaps you didn't make that choice because you wanted to be away from locally grown produce, but the supermarket being your only option is a consequence of that choice. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to point out that much of the choices we make will reduce the other choices we have and we should be conscious of the ones that drive us to become mindless consumers and remove other options from us in the market.
- nonrandomstring 4y ago
  > be conscious of the ones that drive us to become mindless consumers and remove other options from us in the market. Nicely put. I see that sort of "choice affecting choices" you describe leveraged/manipulated a lot in tech, to "funnel" people into worlds with ever smaller horizons. Every product has an inbuilt con or trick that seems out to get you. It's essence is anti-choice masquerading as forms of economic freedom. How to remain conscious of that? It's tiring. Like being in a jungle surrounded by predators.

Gordonjcp 4y ago

> respectful mockery of Thatcher There is no need to do anything "respectfully" of Thatcher. She should have been hanged. I wouldn't piss on her grave for fear the warmth would comfort her.

gruez 4y ago

> > The market is not working, we just have the tools to realize how badly it's broken. >"The market" is not a single thing. Who seriously think it is? I think most people here knows that "the market" doesn't refer to an actual thing or place, just like "the internet" doesn't refer to an actual actual thing or place.

nonrandomstring 4y ago
> Who seriously think it is? Nobody. I'm not implying anyone is that stupid. It's obviously a figure of speech. Which you get, right?

triangleman83 4y ago

But there are choices, sometimes you're not conscious of the effect of your choice but it was made nonetheless. For your supermarket example, instead of going there you could go to a local farmer's market for those vegetables. It might cost more, but most expect higher quality there than at the supermarket. So there is another "market" option, you shouldn't just expect all your "market" options to be placed in convenient aisles at the grocery store. If you live in the city and have to drive over an hour to get to a farmer's market, well that was also a choice you made. Perhaps you didn't make that choice because you wanted to be away from locally grown produce, but the supermarket being your only option is a consequence of that choice. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just trying to point out that much of the choices we make will reduce the other choices we have and we should be conscious of the ones that drive us to become mindless consumers and remove other options from us in the market.

nonrandomstring 4y ago
> be conscious of the ones that drive us to become mindless consumers and remove other options from us in the market. Nicely put. I see that sort of "choice affecting choices" you describe leveraged/manipulated a lot in tech, to "funnel" people into worlds with ever smaller horizons. Every product has an inbuilt con or trick that seems out to get you. It's essence is anti-choice masquerading as forms of economic freedom. How to remain conscious of that? It's tiring. Like being in a jungle surrounded by predators.