4 ms·

Again, if you have to lie to make your case, what does that say about your case? Pumped hydro storage does not, as I already pointed out, require river valleys

by ncmncm 4y ago

Again, if you have to lie to make your case, what does that say about your case? Pumped hydro storage does not, as I already pointed out, require river valleys. It does not, in fact, need those other things. You make clear that you know nothing about, even, pumped storage. (Maybe look up the word "penstock"?) Why would anyone trust you about others? People often badly overspend on civil projects, but that does not give you honest numbers -- if indeed what you want is honest numbers. You make very clear that you do not want honest numbers. Pretending that fuel synthesis depends on access to scarce raw materials (hydrogen, nitrogen? Really?) will not fool anyone. Neither will anyone be fooled by your insistence that its energy must be extracted via fuel cells.

jholman 4y ago
I'm not the person you've been replying to, but I note that your replies in this chain are getting more and more acrimonious. If you're going to repeatedly accuse the other commenter of bad faith, it's probably best to stop replying. I'm not a civil engineer, nor any kind of expert in grid-scale energy storage, so I can only note that in my amateur readings I've seen many different people (alleged experts) say the same things that Manuel_D is saying. That doesn't mean it's true, that's not my point. My point is that if you know something that all these other commentators don't, I and others would greatly appreciate it if you would explain that. But you'd need to actually explain it, not just accuse others of bad faith.
- pfdietz 4y ago
  The person he is responding to has a dismal history of bad faith trolling on this subject.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Literally no one with any expertise says that energy storage is an unsolved problem. All do acknowledge that building out storage will be a project of a scale similar to that of building out renewables. Only the most dishonest would insist that the relatively small amount of storage already built demonstrates anything other than that capital is overwhelmingly better used, today, to build out new generating capacity. It would be obviously stupid to spend on building storage you have not generating capacity to charge up.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
rendang 4y ago
If pumped hydro+renewables is so cheap, why have developing countries like Vietnam chosen to build coal plants instead? Which large country has been able to replace fossil generation with wind/solar & storage and keep prices down?
- pfdietz 4y ago
  They may not be cheaper than coal plants. But coal plants (indeed, any fossil fuel plants) are off the table if we are to stop global warming. What pumped hydro(+other storage)+renewables is cheaper than is nuclear. You will notice Vietnam isn't building nukes either.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Countries where corruption is a big problem have difficulty responding to honest market signals. Autocracies are worst, this way, but the US's innovation of making corruption explicitly legal also slows response to market signals. Incumbents see plenty still to be raked off people locked into existing infrastructure.
Manuel_D 4y ago
> Pumped hydro storage does not, as I already pointed out, require river valleys. It does not, in fact, need those other things. You make clear that you know nothing about, even, pumped storage. (Maybe look up the word "penstock"?) Why would anyone trust you about others? I'm well aware of what a penstock is. This [1] graphic shows how a penstock functions in pumped hydro storage. You see that "upper reservoir"? That's an alpine lake that forms the body of water that flows down through the penstock and drives the electric turbine. You have to have the right geography to form that upper reservoir. If you tried to build a pumped hydro storage in Nebraska, you'd have to move massive amounts of earth to build that upper reservoir - essentially building an artificial alpine lake. This is prohibitively expensive to do, which is why hydroelectric storage is geographically limited. > Pretending that fuel synthesis depends on access to scarce raw materials (hydrogen, nitrogen? Really?) Hydrogen is almost entirely produced through steam reformation, which emits carbon dioxide. Effective hydrogen electrolysis needs expensive materials like titanium electrodes. 1. https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_article_width/public/2021-12/wpto-pumped-storage-hydropower-illustration-12-23-2021.jpg?itok=zByAQ3j2 https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_artic...
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Really, who do you imagine you are fooling? The graphic does not, in fact, portray an "alpine lake". It says, exactly, "Upper Reservoir". Did you hope people would not click through and see? The place where water in the system is at high pressure is not in the upper reservoir, but only lower down, inside the penstock. Which you now claim you already knew, after lying about it.
  - Manuel_D 4y ago
    What did I get wrong about a penstock? > You see that "upper reservoir"? That's an alpine lake that forms the body of water that flows down through the penstock and drives the electric turbine. The pressure is at the bottom of the penstock at the turbine. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I wrote otherwise. If the upper reservoir isn't raised - as in, an alpine lake - the there's no pressure in the penstock. Look at any picture of a hydroelectric storage facility: https://i0.wp.com/esbarchives.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/turlough-hill_aerial-view.jpg?fit=714%2C471&ssl=1 https://i0.wp.com/esbarchives.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/... https://www.ecogeneration.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/USACE_Kinzua_Dam_downriver-1280x640.jpg https://www.ecogeneration.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/... https://i1.wp.com/www.cleanfuture.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/ENR0416Pump08.jpg?w=900&ssl=1 https://i1.wp.com/www.cleanfuture.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2... If the upper reservoir isn't raised well above the river or lower reservoir, then there's no pressure to drive the turbines. If you didn't build the upper reservoir up high on a mountain forming an alpine lake, and instead built it on flat ground you'd just have a big useless pond. This is why geography is crucial for pumped hydroelectricity storage.

by ncmncm 4y ago

jholman 4y ago

I'm not the person you've been replying to, but I note that your replies in this chain are getting more and more acrimonious. If you're going to repeatedly accuse the other commenter of bad faith, it's probably best to stop replying. I'm not a civil engineer, nor any kind of expert in grid-scale energy storage, so I can only note that in my amateur readings I've seen many different people (alleged experts) say the same things that Manuel_D is saying. That doesn't mean it's true, that's not my point. My point is that if you know something that all these other commentators don't, I and others would greatly appreciate it if you would explain that. But you'd need to actually explain it, not just accuse others of bad faith.

pfdietz 4y ago
The person he is responding to has a dismal history of bad faith trolling on this subject.
ncmncm 4y ago
Literally no one with any expertise says that energy storage is an unsolved problem. All do acknowledge that building out storage will be a project of a scale similar to that of building out renewables. Only the most dishonest would insist that the relatively small amount of storage already built demonstrates anything other than that capital is overwhelmingly better used, today, to build out new generating capacity. It would be obviously stupid to spend on building storage you have not generating capacity to charge up.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

rendang 4y ago

If pumped hydro+renewables is so cheap, why have developing countries like Vietnam chosen to build coal plants instead? Which large country has been able to replace fossil generation with wind/solar & storage and keep prices down?

pfdietz 4y ago
They may not be cheaper than coal plants. But coal plants (indeed, any fossil fuel plants) are off the table if we are to stop global warming. What pumped hydro(+other storage)+renewables is cheaper than is nuclear. You will notice Vietnam isn't building nukes either.
ncmncm 4y ago
Countries where corruption is a big problem have difficulty responding to honest market signals. Autocracies are worst, this way, but the US's innovation of making corruption explicitly legal also slows response to market signals. Incumbents see plenty still to be raked off people locked into existing infrastructure.

Manuel_D 4y ago

> Pumped hydro storage does not, as I already pointed out, require river valleys. It does not, in fact, need those other things. You make clear that you know nothing about, even, pumped storage. (Maybe look up the word "penstock"?) Why would anyone trust you about others? I'm well aware of what a penstock is. This [1] graphic shows how a penstock functions in pumped hydro storage. You see that "upper reservoir"? That's an alpine lake that forms the body of water that flows down through the penstock and drives the electric turbine. You have to have the right geography to form that upper reservoir. If you tried to build a pumped hydro storage in Nebraska, you'd have to move massive amounts of earth to build that upper reservoir - essentially building an artificial alpine lake. This is prohibitively expensive to do, which is why hydroelectric storage is geographically limited. > Pretending that fuel synthesis depends on access to scarce raw materials (hydrogen, nitrogen? Really?) Hydrogen is almost entirely produced through steam reformation, which emits carbon dioxide. Effective hydrogen electrolysis needs expensive materials like titanium electrodes. 1. https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_article_width/public/2021-12/wpto-pumped-storage-hydropower-illustration-12-23-2021.jpg?itok=zByAQ3j2 https://www.energy.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_artic...

ncmncm 4y ago
Really, who do you imagine you are fooling? The graphic does not, in fact, portray an "alpine lake". It says, exactly, "Upper Reservoir". Did you hope people would not click through and see? The place where water in the system is at high pressure is not in the upper reservoir, but only lower down, inside the penstock. Which you now claim you already knew, after lying about it.
- Manuel_D 4y ago
  What did I get wrong about a penstock? > You see that "upper reservoir"? That's an alpine lake that forms the body of water that flows down through the penstock and drives the electric turbine. The pressure is at the bottom of the penstock at the turbine. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I wrote otherwise. If the upper reservoir isn't raised - as in, an alpine lake - the there's no pressure in the penstock. Look at any picture of a hydroelectric storage facility: https://i0.wp.com/esbarchives.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/turlough-hill_aerial-view.jpg?fit=714%2C471&ssl=1 https://i0.wp.com/esbarchives.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/... https://www.ecogeneration.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/USACE_Kinzua_Dam_downriver-1280x640.jpg https://www.ecogeneration.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/... https://i1.wp.com/www.cleanfuture.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/ENR0416Pump08.jpg?w=900&ssl=1 https://i1.wp.com/www.cleanfuture.co.in/wp-content/uploads/2... If the upper reservoir isn't raised well above the river or lower reservoir, then there's no pressure to drive the turbines. If you didn't build the upper reservoir up high on a mountain forming an alpine lake, and instead built it on flat ground you'd just have a big useless pond. This is why geography is crucial for pumped hydroelectricity storage.