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I wish I was born in such a culture. I've been trying to teach my father I'm not comfortable with being patted on my laps, back, hugged or generally needlessly

I wish I was born in such a culture. I've been trying to teach my father I'm not comfortable with being patted on my laps, back, hugged or generally needlessly touched, since I was 7 at least (25 now). I'm not very hopeful that will ever work. At least I got the little success of stopping my relatives from trying to kiss me on cheeks. For me such gestures are really reserved for intimate relationships in intimate moments. I've recently read James Clavell's Shōgun and the way this book depicted how physical contact and intimacy was treated in Japan circa 1600 really resonates with how I feel about those things, i.e. whatever happens between two people behind close doors is no big deal, public nudity (devoid of sex) is no big deal, but casual touching, hugging, kissing with everyone at every turn which is so commonplace in Western cultures is a no-no. I highly recommend the book btw. It gave me a picture of a beautiful place and culture.

antiterra 4y ago
I hope it’s a little heartening that a parenting style that says ‘my body is my body’ is relatively popular which means those kids never have to try to dodge a kiss from grandma they don’t want. That said, reading about Temple Grandin’s hug box experience might open something up around the sensation.
- touisteur 4y ago
  It has become very clear to me, listening to all my female friends, colleagues, partners - mtalking about consent and all kinds of horrible experiences when they couldn't say no, I didn't feel they could - that we used to teach body submission since a young age. I have twin girls and I'm trying as hard as possible to teach them body autonomy and consent. Your body your choice. The doctors help (if it's not urgent, let's talk, and if you're afraid or don't understand yet, we'll do it later on - the girls consent far easier when they don't get pressure and an explanation, and when they can see a track record of truthfulness and explaining stuff before - this is going to hurt, I'm doing it so you don't get such and such disease, as your parents explained, are you OK with it ? We can numb the area if you need). It can look silly to the tough-it-out crowd (and I don't really care if it annoys anyone) and yes, there'll be emergency overrides, but thankfully we've never needed any. Even the rare firemen or ER medics asked and explained before performing acts and actually listened to the answer (we can do this one a bit later, but we need to do that one now to make sure you're not in grave danger, OK?)... Family that doesn't understand get a talking to, first by the girls themselves, and then later on I can most of the time pinpoint painful or unpleasant experiences in the family stories, to illustrate the most irate. Every woman in my family immediately got it. My own grandma (born in the 20s) was ecstatic when we explained 'oh I hated when they forced me to kiss someone or get kissed, good for them, women are not toys'. Guess who gets the most hugs, kisses... My father doesn't get it, jokes it out and tries to force the issue or steal hugs or kisses and doesn't understand why they won't 'just take it'. Yeah... You can guess how he is with women. The first rule there has always been 'have I listened to what they actually want'? They're dependent human beings, not things. Strangely, many things become easier then. Not a struggle with authority but actually convincing about what needs to happen (vaccines, medical exams, hygiene, medication, sunscreen...), what can happen if they want and what the consequences can be (ears pierced, kinds of clothes, hairstyle)... I find them far more invested once they're all in, and... that I needed to work a lot on control issues. ... sorry, parenting is such a mind consuming activity, I ramble :-)
  - pineaux 4y ago
    I agree with you on the consent thing. Still, many many people want hugs and sometimes they dont know it in advance. Its the same as doing any scary thing, dont force people to do it, but a bit encouragement is not necessarily bad, you should know when to stop tho.
    - touisteur 4y ago
      Yeah, when we feel they might need a hug (hurt themselves, some sadness, anger) we ask whether they want one. And the key here is not getting angry, sad or impatient when they refuse,but staying around patiently. It's there if they want it, there is no reason for anyone to rebuke them for not wanting to be touched... They need to know that normal is not forced in any way. To be able to see the difference, when they're being forced. It's not something I was taught and it's very, very hard sometimes to stay and 'be there' and not hug... But the worst time to force is when they're the most vulnerable.
someweirdperson 4y ago
- ip26 4y ago
  Did you read all the press about lonely single people in lockdown, starved of human touch for six months or more, talking about what that was like? I don’t think many people came away from lockdown with the same viewpoint as you.
  - someweirdperson 4y ago
    I do see a cotradiction here. People can touch eachother as much as they want. However, I don't think they are entitled to touch my hands, as defined by some traditional social norm.
- myself248 4y ago
  Oh, if only.
pineaux 4y ago
You should try some tantra, I know multiple people that have been mentally healed by a single week-long tantra retreat. They changed front people that were uncomfortable with touch and intimacy to people who actively sought it out, without becoming creepy or non-consentual. I have one friends who was completely uncomfortable with his body and with intimacy from other people. Because of this, he was 26 years old and never had a sexual experience with another person before. After hearing some good stories of other Friends, he decided to do a tantra retreat. He came back a changed man. His fear of intimacy had dissapeared. A girl from the retreat proposed that she would deflower him and a few weeks later hè had his first threesome. I know it sounds a bit unbelievable. I probably wouldn't believe it, if I hadn't had multiple people with a similar experience. That being said; nobody should be forced to hug or kiss if they don't want to. I do, however, believe that most people crave intimacy even if they do not know it themselves. I think love and intimacy are dangerous for systems and society, and are therefor discouraged slightly by society.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  Any chance at all you want to highlight what GP supposedly is to be "mentally healed" for?
  - pineaux 4y ago
    Yes, no problem. It is the taking away of inhibiting feelings. You know: like when you want to swim, but you feel concious about your body and rather not show it. It is your own view which handicaps you in such a moment.

antiterra 4y ago

I hope it’s a little heartening that a parenting style that says ‘my body is my body’ is relatively popular which means those kids never have to try to dodge a kiss from grandma they don’t want. That said, reading about Temple Grandin’s hug box experience might open something up around the sensation.

touisteur 4y ago
It has become very clear to me, listening to all my female friends, colleagues, partners - mtalking about consent and all kinds of horrible experiences when they couldn't say no, I didn't feel they could - that we used to teach body submission since a young age. I have twin girls and I'm trying as hard as possible to teach them body autonomy and consent. Your body your choice. The doctors help (if it's not urgent, let's talk, and if you're afraid or don't understand yet, we'll do it later on - the girls consent far easier when they don't get pressure and an explanation, and when they can see a track record of truthfulness and explaining stuff before - this is going to hurt, I'm doing it so you don't get such and such disease, as your parents explained, are you OK with it ? We can numb the area if you need). It can look silly to the tough-it-out crowd (and I don't really care if it annoys anyone) and yes, there'll be emergency overrides, but thankfully we've never needed any. Even the rare firemen or ER medics asked and explained before performing acts and actually listened to the answer (we can do this one a bit later, but we need to do that one now to make sure you're not in grave danger, OK?)... Family that doesn't understand get a talking to, first by the girls themselves, and then later on I can most of the time pinpoint painful or unpleasant experiences in the family stories, to illustrate the most irate. Every woman in my family immediately got it. My own grandma (born in the 20s) was ecstatic when we explained 'oh I hated when they forced me to kiss someone or get kissed, good for them, women are not toys'. Guess who gets the most hugs, kisses... My father doesn't get it, jokes it out and tries to force the issue or steal hugs or kisses and doesn't understand why they won't 'just take it'. Yeah... You can guess how he is with women. The first rule there has always been 'have I listened to what they actually want'? They're dependent human beings, not things. Strangely, many things become easier then. Not a struggle with authority but actually convincing about what needs to happen (vaccines, medical exams, hygiene, medication, sunscreen...), what can happen if they want and what the consequences can be (ears pierced, kinds of clothes, hairstyle)... I find them far more invested once they're all in, and... that I needed to work a lot on control issues. ... sorry, parenting is such a mind consuming activity, I ramble :-)
- pineaux 4y ago
  I agree with you on the consent thing. Still, many many people want hugs and sometimes they dont know it in advance. Its the same as doing any scary thing, dont force people to do it, but a bit encouragement is not necessarily bad, you should know when to stop tho.
  - touisteur 4y ago
    Yeah, when we feel they might need a hug (hurt themselves, some sadness, anger) we ask whether they want one. And the key here is not getting angry, sad or impatient when they refuse,but staying around patiently. It's there if they want it, there is no reason for anyone to rebuke them for not wanting to be touched... They need to know that normal is not forced in any way. To be able to see the difference, when they're being forced. It's not something I was taught and it's very, very hard sometimes to stay and 'be there' and not hug... But the worst time to force is when they're the most vulnerable.

someweirdperson 4y ago

ip26 4y ago
Did you read all the press about lonely single people in lockdown, starved of human touch for six months or more, talking about what that was like? I don’t think many people came away from lockdown with the same viewpoint as you.
- someweirdperson 4y ago
  I do see a cotradiction here. People can touch eachother as much as they want. However, I don't think they are entitled to touch my hands, as defined by some traditional social norm.
myself248 4y ago
Oh, if only.

pineaux 4y ago

You should try some tantra, I know multiple people that have been mentally healed by a single week-long tantra retreat. They changed front people that were uncomfortable with touch and intimacy to people who actively sought it out, without becoming creepy or non-consentual. I have one friends who was completely uncomfortable with his body and with intimacy from other people. Because of this, he was 26 years old and never had a sexual experience with another person before. After hearing some good stories of other Friends, he decided to do a tantra retreat. He came back a changed man. His fear of intimacy had dissapeared. A girl from the retreat proposed that she would deflower him and a few weeks later hè had his first threesome. I know it sounds a bit unbelievable. I probably wouldn't believe it, if I hadn't had multiple people with a similar experience. That being said; nobody should be forced to hug or kiss if they don't want to. I do, however, believe that most people crave intimacy even if they do not know it themselves. I think love and intimacy are dangerous for systems and society, and are therefor discouraged slightly by society.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
Any chance at all you want to highlight what GP supposedly is to be "mentally healed" for?
- pineaux 4y ago
  Yes, no problem. It is the taking away of inhibiting feelings. You know: like when you want to swim, but you feel concious about your body and rather not show it. It is your own view which handicaps you in such a moment.