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Humans amaze me. We do things that creates enough problem that then cause other problems. But instead of solving the root problems we solve further up the stac

Humans amaze me. We do things that creates enough problem that then cause other problems. But instead of solving the root problems we solve further up the stack and in that process waste further resources. And as a byproduct create more problems. Examples: instead of banning plastics, instead of throwing it in the water, instead of recycling we go about fixing the micro plastic that keep leeching in the water.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
viraptor 4y ago
Even if we stopped the production completely right now, that doesn't remove what's already in the water. The root problem in this case is: it's already out there.
- blueflow 4y ago
  Is it stable in the water, indefinitely? That would surprise me.
  - smileybarry 4y ago
    It is, that’s the problem with microplastics. They just last and they “decompose” into smaller and smaller plastics. That’s how we got here.
    - throwaway09223 4y ago
      It's not. Plastics do decompose slowly, but they certainly do decompose -- especially under sunlight. If they didn't decompose we would have a lot more plastic in the environment than we do now. Here's a recent study on the rate of decomposition in the ocean: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304389419310192 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030438941...
      - smileybarry 4y ago
        I didn't mean they stuck around forever, but that they stuck around for much longer and much more "painfully" than we anticipated. The entire microplastics phase was probably not really anticipated when they introduced "biodegradable" plastic bags, which eventually just broke down to tiny plastic that gets on everything around it.
        blueflow 4y ago
        So its not stable, it just has a relatively long lifetime.
alliao 4y ago
banning plastic is moronic. they didn't come about because people wanted to pollute the world, it solved real issues while creating unpleasant externalities and this is a great research to mitigate the pollution. name me a country that didn't increase in plastic usage AFTER banning plastic
- LunaSea 4y ago
  We could use glass bottles but decided to switch to plastic ones. One has obvious ecological advantages over the other.
  - cableshaft 4y ago
    While I agree with that, microplastics aren't really because of plastic bottles. "Most of the microplastic pollution in the world doesn’t come from discarded bottles. It comes from textiles, tyres and city dust. These three sources account for over 80% of all microplastic pollution in the environment and the seas."[1] Also the world is running out of the sand that's good for making glass (also concrete)[2], so that's not a great solution either. We should probably just stop using both of them entirely for canned drinks. But that's a tall ask, I know (and I also struggle with). [1]: https://www.eib.org/en/essays/plastic-pollution https://www.eib.org/en/essays/plastic-pollution [2]: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is-running-out-of-sand https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is...
    - LunaSea 4y ago
      You can however wash glass or melt it again. Also plastic is an issue beyond microplastics as it requires oil and is not really recyclable.
      - petre 4y ago
        Yes but glass is heavy and it pollutes through externalities (transport + melting). I like aluminium better but the liners contain BPA or replacements, so glass is still the most sensible option. During communism there was a lot of glass recycling being done in my country. Glasses and jars were standardised, meaning there were few modles in circulation and one could clean off the labels and take them to a recycling centre and collect a few pennies for evey item.
badtension 4y ago
But this isn't an individual human decision, this is a system that makes it all happen this way. We're fixated on growth: when growing more plastic industry seems passe, we leave it on a current level (or just have a greenwashing campaign) and grow another industry to clean up the plastics. We could dial down the plastic usage and implement some cleaner solutions but that would need some difficult decisions (am I going to have similar profit margins when changing from plastic to paper? what are initial costs?) and perhaps an inconvenience to the consumer (e.g. make bottled water very expensive, bring your own container and refill it using public water faucets). I hope this will happen sooner than later with as many industries as possible.
DontchaKnowit 4y ago
Well turns out plastics are enormously useful to a lot of people so "banning plastics" is not gonna happen
- nfhshy68 4y ago
  I don't think people understand just how much stuff in our daily lives is petrochemicals. Further, I don't think the quite grasp the scale difference between what we used to have made out of alternatives and what we now make out of plastics. It's not a question of switching to glass, wood and metal, there simply isn't enough of those resources in the world to support however many billion were up to now.
  - superinterwebs 4y ago
    please tell us more!

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

viraptor 4y ago

Even if we stopped the production completely right now, that doesn't remove what's already in the water. The root problem in this case is: it's already out there.

blueflow 4y ago
Is it stable in the water, indefinitely? That would surprise me.
- smileybarry 4y ago
  It is, that’s the problem with microplastics. They just last and they “decompose” into smaller and smaller plastics. That’s how we got here.
  - throwaway09223 4y ago
    It's not. Plastics do decompose slowly, but they certainly do decompose -- especially under sunlight. If they didn't decompose we would have a lot more plastic in the environment than we do now. Here's a recent study on the rate of decomposition in the ocean: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304389419310192 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030438941...
    - smileybarry 4y ago
      I didn't mean they stuck around forever, but that they stuck around for much longer and much more "painfully" than we anticipated. The entire microplastics phase was probably not really anticipated when they introduced "biodegradable" plastic bags, which eventually just broke down to tiny plastic that gets on everything around it.
      - blueflow 4y ago
        So its not stable, it just has a relatively long lifetime.

alliao 4y ago

banning plastic is moronic. they didn't come about because people wanted to pollute the world, it solved real issues while creating unpleasant externalities and this is a great research to mitigate the pollution. name me a country that didn't increase in plastic usage AFTER banning plastic

LunaSea 4y ago
We could use glass bottles but decided to switch to plastic ones. One has obvious ecological advantages over the other.
- cableshaft 4y ago
  While I agree with that, microplastics aren't really because of plastic bottles. "Most of the microplastic pollution in the world doesn’t come from discarded bottles. It comes from textiles, tyres and city dust. These three sources account for over 80% of all microplastic pollution in the environment and the seas."[1] Also the world is running out of the sand that's good for making glass (also concrete)[2], so that's not a great solution either. We should probably just stop using both of them entirely for canned drinks. But that's a tall ask, I know (and I also struggle with). [1]: https://www.eib.org/en/essays/plastic-pollution https://www.eib.org/en/essays/plastic-pollution [2]: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is-running-out-of-sand https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is...
  - LunaSea 4y ago
    You can however wash glass or melt it again. Also plastic is an issue beyond microplastics as it requires oil and is not really recyclable.
    - petre 4y ago
      Yes but glass is heavy and it pollutes through externalities (transport + melting). I like aluminium better but the liners contain BPA or replacements, so glass is still the most sensible option. During communism there was a lot of glass recycling being done in my country. Glasses and jars were standardised, meaning there were few modles in circulation and one could clean off the labels and take them to a recycling centre and collect a few pennies for evey item.

badtension 4y ago

But this isn't an individual human decision, this is a system that makes it all happen this way. We're fixated on growth: when growing more plastic industry seems passe, we leave it on a current level (or just have a greenwashing campaign) and grow another industry to clean up the plastics. We could dial down the plastic usage and implement some cleaner solutions but that would need some difficult decisions (am I going to have similar profit margins when changing from plastic to paper? what are initial costs?) and perhaps an inconvenience to the consumer (e.g. make bottled water very expensive, bring your own container and refill it using public water faucets). I hope this will happen sooner than later with as many industries as possible.

DontchaKnowit 4y ago

Well turns out plastics are enormously useful to a lot of people so "banning plastics" is not gonna happen

nfhshy68 4y ago
I don't think people understand just how much stuff in our daily lives is petrochemicals. Further, I don't think the quite grasp the scale difference between what we used to have made out of alternatives and what we now make out of plastics. It's not a question of switching to glass, wood and metal, there simply isn't enough of those resources in the world to support however many billion were up to now.
- superinterwebs 4y ago
  please tell us more!