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I doesn't often say that CO2 emissions for a new EV are higher than an ICE. After 10-20k miles you're just breaking even. Over the life of the vehicle the EV do

by rr808 4y ago

I doesn't often say that CO2 emissions for a new EV are higher than an ICE. After 10-20k miles you're just breaking even. Over the life of the vehicle the EV does have fewer emissions but it isn't a huge difference. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifetime-carbon-emissions-electric-vehicles-vs-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/lifeti...

schimmy_changa 4y ago
I don't want to feed the trolls, but this requires a response as it is highly misleading. Cars last 100k+ miles now, and that 13k break-even number in your link is with the current US energy mix, which is rapidly decarbonizing. It is a big deal, and worth moving to EVs.
- osigurdson 4y ago
  Both articles should simply state the lifetime carbon footprint of ICE cars and EVs. That is all that matters in this context - break even mileage and energy efficiency are secondary concerns.
  - ryukafalz 4y ago
    GP’s point though is that the footprint of EVs is constantly changing. ICE cars can only ever work by burning fossil fuels, which inevitably results in a certain amount of emissions per gallon of gas burned. That’s not the case for EVs as the electricity needed for them can be generated in many different ways, some resulting in more emissions than others.
    - curmudgeon22 4y ago
      I wonder how much the footprint for ICE changes based on where the crude was sourced from, eg: - traditional well in the US - fracking in the US - offshore - Canadian tarsands Edit: This article has some interesting information on Energy Return on Investment (EROI) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421513003856 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142151...
      - osigurdson 4y ago
        It seems that for this analysis using the current and projected fuel mix would make the most sense. There is no option at the pump purchase gas made from offshore crude for example.
    - osigurdson 4y ago
      The projected energy mix for the next 10-20 years is likely known with some certainty. I suspect that the total carbon footprint of an EV purchased today is something that can be reasonably estimated
- rr808 4y ago
  > Cars last 100k+ miles now Yes many do. Some are written off in their first year. The main point is if we all miraculously switched to EVs, there are savings in emissions to be had, but it wont fix the problem.
  - _ph_ 4y ago
    Nothing "fixes the problem". That is a non-argument. But electric cars are a huge step in the right direction and important in enabling the transition to renewables. Be it only by being a storage by nature.
    - rr808 4y ago
      > electric cars are a huge step in the right direction and important in enabling the transition to renewables This is the whole problem. Its only a small step forward but people think it'll make a huge difference. Ideally people would move to a small urban apartment and walk or take public transport. EVs let people continue to drive and think they're OK.
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  Depending on how the battery tech shakes out (such as the million mile battery) EVs may last much longer. Way less parts, regen braking rather than brakes, etc. There is so much FUD out there from the professional astroturfers and the cranky old amateurs. But EVs will follow the path that solar and wind are: the sheer economics will sweep away ICEs in inexorable fashion.
zenexer 4y ago
20k miles is nothing, though.
- rr808 4y ago
  I realize many people drive that in a year, for me personally I take public transport so only do 3-4k/yr
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    You might help buy buying an older ICE to fund someones upgrade to EV. Or use a car sharing service?
  - _ph_ 4y ago
    If you are doing so little miles, you should of course either not own a car at all or an older, used car. Which will last very long under the conditions.
bandyaboot 4y ago
The difference in lifetime emissions between ICE and EV gets progressively larger as time goes on.
gruez 4y ago
>Over the life of the vehicle the EV does have fewer emissions but it isn't a huge difference. source for this? the article you linked doesn't seem to provide lifetime carbon emissions, nor does a 20k mile break-even point imply that there "isn't a huge difference" in lifetime emissions
- rr808 4y ago
  Showing initial emissions: https://insideevs.com/news/549267/manufacturing-evs-70percent-more-emissions/ https://insideevs.com/news/549267/manufacturing-evs-70percen... https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-are-lower-than-gasoline-cars-experts-say.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-ar... https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html shows the difference in annual emissions https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a27039/tesla-battery-emissions-study-fake-new https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a... debunks the myth that the tesla battery is worth 8 years of driving, but still says its a bit over 2 years.

by rr808 4y ago

schimmy_changa 4y ago

I don't want to feed the trolls, but this requires a response as it is highly misleading. Cars last 100k+ miles now, and that 13k break-even number in your link is with the current US energy mix, which is rapidly decarbonizing. It is a big deal, and worth moving to EVs.

osigurdson 4y ago
Both articles should simply state the lifetime carbon footprint of ICE cars and EVs. That is all that matters in this context - break even mileage and energy efficiency are secondary concerns.
- ryukafalz 4y ago
  GP’s point though is that the footprint of EVs is constantly changing. ICE cars can only ever work by burning fossil fuels, which inevitably results in a certain amount of emissions per gallon of gas burned. That’s not the case for EVs as the electricity needed for them can be generated in many different ways, some resulting in more emissions than others.
  - curmudgeon22 4y ago
    I wonder how much the footprint for ICE changes based on where the crude was sourced from, eg: - traditional well in the US - fracking in the US - offshore - Canadian tarsands Edit: This article has some interesting information on Energy Return on Investment (EROI) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301421513003856 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030142151...
    - osigurdson 4y ago
      It seems that for this analysis using the current and projected fuel mix would make the most sense. There is no option at the pump purchase gas made from offshore crude for example.
  - osigurdson 4y ago
    The projected energy mix for the next 10-20 years is likely known with some certainty. I suspect that the total carbon footprint of an EV purchased today is something that can be reasonably estimated
rr808 4y ago
> Cars last 100k+ miles now Yes many do. Some are written off in their first year. The main point is if we all miraculously switched to EVs, there are savings in emissions to be had, but it wont fix the problem.
- _ph_ 4y ago
  Nothing "fixes the problem". That is a non-argument. But electric cars are a huge step in the right direction and important in enabling the transition to renewables. Be it only by being a storage by nature.
  - rr808 4y ago
    > electric cars are a huge step in the right direction and important in enabling the transition to renewables This is the whole problem. Its only a small step forward but people think it'll make a huge difference. Ideally people would move to a small urban apartment and walk or take public transport. EVs let people continue to drive and think they're OK.
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
Depending on how the battery tech shakes out (such as the million mile battery) EVs may last much longer. Way less parts, regen braking rather than brakes, etc. There is so much FUD out there from the professional astroturfers and the cranky old amateurs. But EVs will follow the path that solar and wind are: the sheer economics will sweep away ICEs in inexorable fashion.

zenexer 4y ago

20k miles is nothing, though.

rr808 4y ago
I realize many people drive that in a year, for me personally I take public transport so only do 3-4k/yr
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  You might help buy buying an older ICE to fund someones upgrade to EV. Or use a car sharing service?
- _ph_ 4y ago
  If you are doing so little miles, you should of course either not own a car at all or an older, used car. Which will last very long under the conditions.

bandyaboot 4y ago

The difference in lifetime emissions between ICE and EV gets progressively larger as time goes on.

gruez 4y ago

>Over the life of the vehicle the EV does have fewer emissions but it isn't a huge difference. source for this? the article you linked doesn't seem to provide lifetime carbon emissions, nor does a 20k mile break-even point imply that there "isn't a huge difference" in lifetime emissions

rr808 4y ago
Showing initial emissions: https://insideevs.com/news/549267/manufacturing-evs-70percent-more-emissions/ https://insideevs.com/news/549267/manufacturing-evs-70percen... https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-are-lower-than-gasoline-cars-experts-say.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/26/lifetime-emissions-of-evs-ar... https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.html shows the difference in annual emissions https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a27039/tesla-battery-emissions-study-fake-new https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/news/a... debunks the myth that the tesla battery is worth 8 years of driving, but still says its a bit over 2 years.