7 ms·

Let me provide a common hypothetical: - A student is being bullied. This bullying is happening using social media and or text messages. These messages are bein

Let me provide a common hypothetical: - A student is being bullied. This bullying is happening using social media and or text messages. These messages are being sent at various times pseudo-anonymously but there's strong reason to know who it is. Who, exactly, is the authority who we expect to look into this? Is it the police? Using what law/powers? Are social workers empowered? We're clearly not ok with the school doing it. So is bullying that happens outside of school hours just a free-for-all? I'm genuinely asking. It is fine if everyone agrees that schools shouldn't and that it is authoritarian to do so, but then who exactly is the authority? If police are, then when the police slap handcuffs on a K-12 kid, everyone loses their mind about that too and asks "why is this a police matter?!" "Why are we criminalizing young people?!" I'm not saying I have all the answers: Because I absolutely do not. But I am saying people need to think about the bigger picture about how this works and who is responsible for what.

tomrod 4y ago
> Who, exactly, is the authority who we expect to look into this? Parents, typically? Police once it becomes harassment or assault (or threat of).
- djbusby 4y ago
  Parents are not reliable. It's an unpleasant experience asking another parent to tell their kid to stop bullying your kid...and then being told "fuck you".
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > It's an unpleasant experience asking another parent to tell their kid to stop bullying your kid...and then being told "fuck you" Then police.
    - clcaev 4y ago
      > Then the police. In some regions, this is a bit unrealistic. I grew up in a neighborhood where the bully's dad was the police captain. The bully would target brown kids and property of their parents (e.g. M80 down the chimney, among other atrocities). Everyone in town new the son acted with impunity. Kids our age knew it was worse: the dad actively encouraged his son, and gave him the M80s. No one would talk about it in public, less they be targeted as well.
      - tomrod 4y ago
        Everyone is accountable to someone. Escalate where needed.
        mlyle 4y ago
        > > I grew up in a neighborhood where the bully's dad was the police captain. > Everyone is accountable to someone. Escalate where needed. Frankly, this isn't really true-- and shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true. Most people don't have this experience. And especially a couple decades ago this was much less true for the type of circumstances we're discussing.
        tomrod 4y ago
        > shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes. This said, I don't see how this tangent ties to addressing the fact that a community leader abuses their presumed power to protect a bullying child. Outside of doing nothing and letting bad behavior happen, one can address tears in the social contract through a variety of escalation approaches. But the key word is to act. I don't think any human system will protect you without your initiative.
        mlyle 4y ago
        > I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes. I'm saying it takes enormous effort to escalate, and one's results in doing so are pretty closely tied to indicators of social class. And then, there's litigation, which is expensive and out of reach of most. It's the only functional mechanism that prevents 55% of the population from oppressing some chunk. edit: I misjudged which thread I was in, and had a bunch more of a reply here that isn't relevant.
  - vorpalhex 4y ago
    Then it's time to escalate. If the "speaking softly" isn't working, it's time for the stick. My aunt had an exchange student in her care. At some point there was an altercation and a boy at school slapped the (female) exchange student. School didn't want to do anything about it, was hemming and hawing. So my aunt phoned the boys mother and explained the situation - and was met with a "well I can't do anything". My aunt simply replied "Well I can have her at the police station this afternoon and file a report, with photos of her bruises. After that I'm going to call my lawyer." Amazingly, the parent of the troublesome student suddenly found the ability to do something! Speaking softly only works of you're willing to use the stick.
    - puffoflogic 4y ago
      This is not a story I would tell online. When your aunt threatened to go to the police and then failed to follow through, it may have become extortion. You can threaten to sue; you can actually go to the police; you can even tell someone you're going to the police; but what you cannot do is merely threaten to go to the police.
      - tomrod 4y ago
        Extortion: the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats. If I squint my eyes I can sort of see what you're getting at. But on the flip side, this aunt also called the parent to make sure their duty was done. So it would be hard to claim "discipline your child, please, else I will need to file a police report to stop your child's harassment" is extortion.
        mlyle 4y ago
        I agree this is probably not extortion, but people step close to this line and have been surprised by prosecution or litigation. e.g. pay for the damages or I'm going to the police...
        candiodari 4y ago
- imapeopleperson 4y ago
  Bullying is harassment
  - tomrod 4y ago
    > https://www.stopbullying.gov/ https://www.stopbullying.gov/ Sometimes overlaps (probably often) But bullying can also just be being a jerk, it doesn't always fall under harassment laws.
mlyle 4y ago
It's really hard, right? Courts have held that schools have a lower threshold to justify a search, due to the need to maintain a safe environment that is conducive to learning. Schools don't really want to be involved in the outside-school life of their students. But what happens on phones, etc, between students outside school hours absolutely affects the learning environment and how events at school should be interpreted.
- politician 4y ago
  What about the things that happen between children outside their homes, like at a neighborhood park? Would that not meet the vague “standard” of affecting the learning environment at the school? What about what happens in the home? Do they have jurisdiction there too? Maybe schools should mind their own business instead of becoming totalitarian states that use permissive precedents to dig into everyone’s business.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    > What about the things that happen between children outside their homes, like at a neighborhood park? I absolutely think it's relevant whether student A punched student B in the face at the park yesterday, when they're dealing with a dispute where student A seems to have done something that's in a grey area to student B. "Playful" jostling that student B doesn't appreciate is very different with the context of the prior punch in the face. Of course, the problem schools face is that objective facts about what's happened between students-- in or out of school-- are frequently not known. > Maybe schools should mind their own business instead of becoming totalitarian states that use permissive precedents to dig into everyone’s business. Someone1234 posed some good questions above. I don't have all the answers. I endured nearly a decade of terrible bullying because it was literally no one's business, though. Would not recommend.
    - politician 4y ago
      > Of course, the problem schools face is that objective facts about what's happened between students-- in or out of school-- are frequently not known. That's right, but the solution is not to empower schools to operate their own investigation departments so that they can enforce their own laws on our children through a governance system best described as a Medieval lordship. There must be limits on their authority. For children in abusive home environments, schools ought to refer these cases to the State. For children involved in bullying relationships, schools ought to refer these cases to the State. There are more adequate checks and balances on the actions of State than within the unelected fiat systems of governance in public schools. State and local governments can direct the appropriate responses of social workers and law enforcement. There is no rationale for protecting violent bullies from the law by adjudicating their behavior within the nonstandard and arbitrary discipline systems of schools. Schools are not law enforcement and have powerful incentives to act capriciously to keep production moving: as you shared - they didn't look out for you and they didn't stop your bully.
josephcsible 4y ago
Consider a slightly modified hypothetical: What if the bully were homeschooled or a high school dropout (with the victim still in public school)? If your answer is anything but the victim's school, then that answer applies to your original hypothetical too. If your answer is the victim's school, then you're saying that public schools can search anyone's phones (rather than just their own students' phones, which was bad enough) without a warrant just because they're accused of bullying one of their students.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > What if the bully were homeschooled or a high school dropout (with the victim still in public school)? Pure cyberbullying can be pretty bad, but it's even worse when they're in your school, and you're forced to interact with them in that regard... and they can mess with you with no oversight outside school (and deniably). For the most part, schools would rather not try and adjudicate things that happen outside school. But the reasonable interpretation of events between students, and the most reliable remedies, can be very different based on context from outside school.
naet 4y ago
There was a court case that a family member of mine was involved in as a legal assistant, where a local high school found out a group of three kids had been operating an inappropriate instagram account targeting other students (all black) with things like photoshopped nooses around their necks, photoshopping pictures of the students into monkeys, and lots of horrible comments etc. Obviously this made the targeted students feel extremely unsafe with an anonymous account posting their photos online in this somewhat threatening way. Eventually somehow it came out who was behind the account and they were all removed from the school. The case was about one of the expelled students, their family lawyer arguing that they shouldn't have this incident on their student record because it occurred outside of school. I can't remember if they won the case or not, but the issue is complicated. When there is an issue between two students who only know each other from school, it can become a school issue whether it originated there or not.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  > their family lawyer arguing that they shouldn't have this incident on their student record because it occurred outside of school "The only reason you know most of the people you did this to is... drum roll... because you are at the same school"
- Waterluvian 4y ago
  Good point. It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record.
  - mlyle 4y ago
    > It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record. It's a good thing. Student mental health is pretty bad these days. Part of it is that everything is so high stakes: society tells kids any little slip up-- academic or behavioral-- will affect them forever. It's good that ordinary missteps can go away.
    - 4y ago
vorpalhex 4y ago
The school is not fit to play the role of police. Outside of school grounds they have no power. So if the issue is outside school, then the school is not the authority. Is it bullying as in being mean or is it threats of violence? One of those is a crime that you can bring to police, the other is why you have a block button.
mikkergp 4y ago
If the school suspected bullying why wouldn’t they get the parents involved and ask them to look through the phone. I mean this isn’t a case where a kid came to a teacher and asked them for help right? I understand the case of a school helping a student without a parents consent if the student initiated the interaction, it seems unreasonable if it’s the other way around.
philipwhiuk 4y ago
You make the parents legally responsible for the actions of the child and then you send the police after the parents.
- blooalien 4y ago
  That's exactly how things worked when I was a child. And parents did not hesitate to right properly "whup that brat's a**" ("that brat" being whichever child had caused a problem bad enough to involve police somehow) when police came knockin' at the door with a warning to the parents to the effect of "Do your job as a parent, or legal action may become necessary."

tomrod 4y ago

> Who, exactly, is the authority who we expect to look into this? Parents, typically? Police once it becomes harassment or assault (or threat of).

djbusby 4y ago
Parents are not reliable. It's an unpleasant experience asking another parent to tell their kid to stop bullying your kid...and then being told "fuck you".
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > It's an unpleasant experience asking another parent to tell their kid to stop bullying your kid...and then being told "fuck you" Then police.
  - clcaev 4y ago
    > Then the police. In some regions, this is a bit unrealistic. I grew up in a neighborhood where the bully's dad was the police captain. The bully would target brown kids and property of their parents (e.g. M80 down the chimney, among other atrocities). Everyone in town new the son acted with impunity. Kids our age knew it was worse: the dad actively encouraged his son, and gave him the M80s. No one would talk about it in public, less they be targeted as well.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Everyone is accountable to someone. Escalate where needed.
      - mlyle 4y ago
        > > I grew up in a neighborhood where the bully's dad was the police captain. > Everyone is accountable to someone. Escalate where needed. Frankly, this isn't really true-- and shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true. Most people don't have this experience. And especially a couple decades ago this was much less true for the type of circumstances we're discussing.
        tomrod 4y ago
        > shows our immense privilege that we can often act with this assumption and have it come true I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes. This said, I don't see how this tangent ties to addressing the fact that a community leader abuses their presumed power to protect a bullying child. Outside of doing nothing and letting bad behavior happen, one can address tears in the social contract through a variety of escalation approaches. But the key word is to act. I don't think any human system will protect you without your initiative.
        mlyle 4y ago
        > I take this to mean that you don't believe people are capable of understanding the system in which they live, nor advocating for systemic changes. I'm saying it takes enormous effort to escalate, and one's results in doing so are pretty closely tied to indicators of social class. And then, there's litigation, which is expensive and out of reach of most. It's the only functional mechanism that prevents 55% of the population from oppressing some chunk. edit: I misjudged which thread I was in, and had a bunch more of a reply here that isn't relevant.
- vorpalhex 4y ago
  Then it's time to escalate. If the "speaking softly" isn't working, it's time for the stick. My aunt had an exchange student in her care. At some point there was an altercation and a boy at school slapped the (female) exchange student. School didn't want to do anything about it, was hemming and hawing. So my aunt phoned the boys mother and explained the situation - and was met with a "well I can't do anything". My aunt simply replied "Well I can have her at the police station this afternoon and file a report, with photos of her bruises. After that I'm going to call my lawyer." Amazingly, the parent of the troublesome student suddenly found the ability to do something! Speaking softly only works of you're willing to use the stick.
  - puffoflogic 4y ago
    This is not a story I would tell online. When your aunt threatened to go to the police and then failed to follow through, it may have become extortion. You can threaten to sue; you can actually go to the police; you can even tell someone you're going to the police; but what you cannot do is merely threaten to go to the police.
    - tomrod 4y ago
      Extortion: the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats. If I squint my eyes I can sort of see what you're getting at. But on the flip side, this aunt also called the parent to make sure their duty was done. So it would be hard to claim "discipline your child, please, else I will need to file a police report to stop your child's harassment" is extortion.
      - mlyle 4y ago
        I agree this is probably not extortion, but people step close to this line and have been surprised by prosecution or litigation. e.g. pay for the damages or I'm going to the police...
        candiodari 4y ago
imapeopleperson 4y ago
Bullying is harassment
- tomrod 4y ago
  > https://www.stopbullying.gov/ https://www.stopbullying.gov/ Sometimes overlaps (probably often) But bullying can also just be being a jerk, it doesn't always fall under harassment laws.

mlyle 4y ago

It's really hard, right? Courts have held that schools have a lower threshold to justify a search, due to the need to maintain a safe environment that is conducive to learning. Schools don't really want to be involved in the outside-school life of their students. But what happens on phones, etc, between students outside school hours absolutely affects the learning environment and how events at school should be interpreted.

politician 4y ago
What about the things that happen between children outside their homes, like at a neighborhood park? Would that not meet the vague “standard” of affecting the learning environment at the school? What about what happens in the home? Do they have jurisdiction there too? Maybe schools should mind their own business instead of becoming totalitarian states that use permissive precedents to dig into everyone’s business.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > What about the things that happen between children outside their homes, like at a neighborhood park? I absolutely think it's relevant whether student A punched student B in the face at the park yesterday, when they're dealing with a dispute where student A seems to have done something that's in a grey area to student B. "Playful" jostling that student B doesn't appreciate is very different with the context of the prior punch in the face. Of course, the problem schools face is that objective facts about what's happened between students-- in or out of school-- are frequently not known. > Maybe schools should mind their own business instead of becoming totalitarian states that use permissive precedents to dig into everyone’s business. Someone1234 posed some good questions above. I don't have all the answers. I endured nearly a decade of terrible bullying because it was literally no one's business, though. Would not recommend.
  - politician 4y ago
    > Of course, the problem schools face is that objective facts about what's happened between students-- in or out of school-- are frequently not known. That's right, but the solution is not to empower schools to operate their own investigation departments so that they can enforce their own laws on our children through a governance system best described as a Medieval lordship. There must be limits on their authority. For children in abusive home environments, schools ought to refer these cases to the State. For children involved in bullying relationships, schools ought to refer these cases to the State. There are more adequate checks and balances on the actions of State than within the unelected fiat systems of governance in public schools. State and local governments can direct the appropriate responses of social workers and law enforcement. There is no rationale for protecting violent bullies from the law by adjudicating their behavior within the nonstandard and arbitrary discipline systems of schools. Schools are not law enforcement and have powerful incentives to act capriciously to keep production moving: as you shared - they didn't look out for you and they didn't stop your bully.

josephcsible 4y ago

Consider a slightly modified hypothetical: What if the bully were homeschooled or a high school dropout (with the victim still in public school)? If your answer is anything but the victim's school, then that answer applies to your original hypothetical too. If your answer is the victim's school, then you're saying that public schools can search anyone's phones (rather than just their own students' phones, which was bad enough) without a warrant just because they're accused of bullying one of their students.

mlyle 4y ago
> What if the bully were homeschooled or a high school dropout (with the victim still in public school)? Pure cyberbullying can be pretty bad, but it's even worse when they're in your school, and you're forced to interact with them in that regard... and they can mess with you with no oversight outside school (and deniably). For the most part, schools would rather not try and adjudicate things that happen outside school. But the reasonable interpretation of events between students, and the most reliable remedies, can be very different based on context from outside school.

naet 4y ago

There was a court case that a family member of mine was involved in as a legal assistant, where a local high school found out a group of three kids had been operating an inappropriate instagram account targeting other students (all black) with things like photoshopped nooses around their necks, photoshopping pictures of the students into monkeys, and lots of horrible comments etc. Obviously this made the targeted students feel extremely unsafe with an anonymous account posting their photos online in this somewhat threatening way. Eventually somehow it came out who was behind the account and they were all removed from the school. The case was about one of the expelled students, their family lawyer arguing that they shouldn't have this incident on their student record because it occurred outside of school. I can't remember if they won the case or not, but the issue is complicated. When there is an issue between two students who only know each other from school, it can become a school issue whether it originated there or not.

FireBeyond 4y ago
> their family lawyer arguing that they shouldn't have this incident on their student record because it occurred outside of school "The only reason you know most of the people you did this to is... drum roll... because you are at the same school"
Waterluvian 4y ago
Good point. It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record.
- mlyle 4y ago
  > It’s indeed weird that there’s some delineation line between your school permanent record and your life permanent record. It's a good thing. Student mental health is pretty bad these days. Part of it is that everything is so high stakes: society tells kids any little slip up-- academic or behavioral-- will affect them forever. It's good that ordinary missteps can go away.
  - 4y ago

vorpalhex 4y ago

The school is not fit to play the role of police. Outside of school grounds they have no power. So if the issue is outside school, then the school is not the authority. Is it bullying as in being mean or is it threats of violence? One of those is a crime that you can bring to police, the other is why you have a block button.

mikkergp 4y ago

If the school suspected bullying why wouldn’t they get the parents involved and ask them to look through the phone. I mean this isn’t a case where a kid came to a teacher and asked them for help right? I understand the case of a school helping a student without a parents consent if the student initiated the interaction, it seems unreasonable if it’s the other way around.

philipwhiuk 4y ago

You make the parents legally responsible for the actions of the child and then you send the police after the parents.

blooalien 4y ago
That's exactly how things worked when I was a child. And parents did not hesitate to right properly "whup that brat's a**" ("that brat" being whichever child had caused a problem bad enough to involve police somehow) when police came knockin' at the door with a warning to the parents to the effect of "Do your job as a parent, or legal action may become necessary."