7 ms·

EU endorses right to repair as a circular economy essential

74 points by mrzool 4y ago

scarface74 4y ago
Yes because the “right to repair” your phone is important even when manufacturers of most Android phones don’t bother about supporting them with operating system upgrades or security upgrades for more than two years if at all.
- zamalek 4y ago
  That would presumably be part of right to repair.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So they are going to force all Android OEMs to keep their phones updated? Will they get updates as long as iOS? An iPhone 6S from 2015 can still run the latest OS. Apple released a security patch within the last year for phones back to the 2013 iPhone 5s. Going to an Apple store or authorized dealer isn’t as big of a deal to get a $69 battery replacement as it is to ask an Android user to hunt the internet to hopefully find a community supported Android variant that still supports their phone and still not have access to Google Play Services .
    - CommanderData 4y ago
      Probably not but it's speculation at the moment. Maybe support for open source firmware versions allowing the user to switch should they need to. In terms of drivers these could be opened but that'd require a huge amount of change from chip manufacturers.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        So yeah, good luck with getting Qualcomm and the other chipset manufacturers to open source their drivers and then depending on volunteers to support your phone. Even Google once had to drop support for some Nexus devices because it couldn’t convince chipset makers to support their latest OS on the phone.
        RalfWausE 4y ago
        With a market as big as the EU it could be pretty simple: "Make it open source... or get lost"
        6510 4y ago
        also: here is that multi-million euro fine we promised.
        6510 4y ago
        A point system seems fun and pretty good. A manufacturer could be able to score points by providing a date (any date) at which they intend to end support. Perhaps some extra points if they provide information if it will turn into a brick. (just yes/no scores points) More points for extra years and a proper after-life. We have tons of products and services with a TOS stating things like service is not guaranteed, we are not responsible for damages etc Line by line they make the product more terrible because they have good reason to, any kind of support costs money and no one reads the TOS. If we could however express each of those terms into 2-5 numbers on a score card it would all of a sudden become interesting for the manufacturer to review those. Who knows? Maybe if one of our widgets explodes we should pay up to 1000 dollar worth of damages if it means 10 points in responsibility in stead of -100 If replacement parts or even upgrades makes our brand stick out head and shoulders above the competition in official ratings then we should at least have someone do a powerpoint about it, perhaps even a spreadsheet. Scores for existing devices can be improved later. Lowering them could involve fines and/or compensation. Perhaps there is even some market logic to be had: Perhaps if one is stuck with a low score one should pick cheaper parts that have a similar score in stead of bragging about how awesome some components are. I must have purchased more than 50 iphone chargers by now. The expensive ones break just as fast as the cheap ones. Apple should get lots of points for all the parts of their show they got right but also -1000 for the charger quality. Some of the unofficial ones should probably be rated -5000 which is fine if it costs 5 euro. Even if it costs 20 euro I shouldn't be complaining if durability was rated -5000?
    - saurik 4y ago
      The right to repair is not the same as the right to maintenance or whatever you might want to call forcing the manufacturer to keep updating your device. The issue is when manufacturers make it so that it is impossible for anyone except THEM--actively excluding the so-called "owner" of the device, who somehow doesn't actually have many rights currently (and what thereby needs to be fixed)--to be able to develop fixes or updates.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        What good is the “right to repair” a phone that is insecure?
        saurik 4y ago
        Using the term "secure" to describe the property "the supposed-owner of the device is disallowed from having any control over the software running on the device" is a perversion of the term; I would prefer the locks on my house be secure in a way that prevents people I don't want to enter my house from getting inside, not in a way that prevents me from daring to using unauthorized furniture or having the gall to replace the door on one of my cabinets... Apple's version of the word "security" seems to often be more about helping developers implement DRM than about helping the user know their data is safe or private.
- public_defender 4y ago
  What's important here is that right to repair might require an unlockable bootloader so you can install something that does get updates instead of relying on your crappy phone manufacturer's planned obsolescence timeline.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    Yes because most users want to depend on a third party to support their phones and not have access to updated Google Play Services.
    - _aavaa_ 4y ago
      - A custom rom can still get updated google play services. - most users currently don’t get support, so idk what you’re arguing for here - you already have to rely on countless 3rd parties in order to use your phone
      - scarface74 4y ago
        Most Android users don’t get support. iOS users can just go to Settings and get official updates from Apple without trawling the internet hoping some volunteers decided to support their phone.
        _aavaa_ 4y ago
        Until apple decides to no longer update their phone. And then they’re in an even worse position. So if that is cause it’s just an old device and new feature don’t have what they need. But others is a decision they make. Look at the recent redesign of the Reminders app, the fact that the new and old version are incompatible is not because of hardware. Nor is their choice to not backport it.
        scarface74 4y ago
        The iPhone 5s from 2013 got its last security update in September 2021. Can you say the same about an Android device from 2013? The 5s was the first 64 bit iPhone.
- andrei_says_ 4y ago
  This is obviously bigger than android phones is updates. I’m sorry you don’t feel your particular pet peeve is being addressed on day zero and I’m doubly sorry to see such a negative attitude toward a clearly constructive initiative. Not every single issue will be solved immediately or perfectly. This is about turning a huge ship around - and changing whole industries in the process. Once they change for Europe, the rest of the world is more likely to change, too.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    There is no larger market than the smart phone market.
    - tuatoru 4y ago
      Citation needed, I'd say. I'd expect housing, healthcare, education, food, clothing, and transport to be bigger. Anecdotally, I spend more on optical care and on fresh apples and oranges than I do on smartphones most years. Clothing, much more. Housing costs, orders of magnitude more. Or did you mean "confining ourselves to goods with semiconductors in them"? Then cars are a bigger market. Probably kitchen appliances too.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        Yes because “right to repair” is extremely relevant to everything on your list. No, there are not more people in the world that have cars than have mobile phones.
        unionpivo 4y ago
        It's relevant to cars, computers, kitchen appliances, most other electronics in houses from TVs to clocks to washing machines. Right to repair and android manufacturers being shit are 2 separate issues. And fixing one of those issues is worth it on its own. This would be a win even if they excluded smartphones completely. Not sure what your problem is exactly. You are all ower this thread arguing with everyone. But other the smartphones not being updated, which doe not have much to do with right to repair in first place, you haven't really said really made any argument.
- binbashthefash 4y ago
  Install one of the many non-OEM distros. PostmarketOS, Ubuntu Touch, Graphene... Harm reduction still happens with non-perfect scenarios.
- squarefoot 4y ago
  It is much much much more complex than that. I have several old Android tablets that I could use for a hundred projects after installing a proper FOSS operating system and software, from IoT monitoring to communication, media playing, electronics etc. if only their manufacturer didn't tight close them to ensure they become obsolete when they decide so. These devices didn't turn (yet) into a couple Kg of electronic waste just because I know there still is potential to make them useful, but the reality for most people is way different: as soon as a device becomes obsolete, it is thrown in some landfill and replaced. If right to repair would also mean manufacturers forced to unlock bootloaders and release enough documentation so that software can be ported to old devices, the implications will be huge.
Proven 4y ago

74 points by mrzool 4y ago

Yes because the “right to repair” your phone is important even when manufacturers of most Android phones don’t bother about supporting them with operating system upgrades or security upgrades for more than two years if at all.

zamalek 4y ago
That would presumably be part of right to repair.
- scarface74 4y ago
  So they are going to force all Android OEMs to keep their phones updated? Will they get updates as long as iOS? An iPhone 6S from 2015 can still run the latest OS. Apple released a security patch within the last year for phones back to the 2013 iPhone 5s. Going to an Apple store or authorized dealer isn’t as big of a deal to get a $69 battery replacement as it is to ask an Android user to hunt the internet to hopefully find a community supported Android variant that still supports their phone and still not have access to Google Play Services .
  - CommanderData 4y ago
    Probably not but it's speculation at the moment. Maybe support for open source firmware versions allowing the user to switch should they need to. In terms of drivers these could be opened but that'd require a huge amount of change from chip manufacturers.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So yeah, good luck with getting Qualcomm and the other chipset manufacturers to open source their drivers and then depending on volunteers to support your phone. Even Google once had to drop support for some Nexus devices because it couldn’t convince chipset makers to support their latest OS on the phone.
      - RalfWausE 4y ago
        With a market as big as the EU it could be pretty simple: "Make it open source... or get lost"
        6510 4y ago
        also: here is that multi-million euro fine we promised.
      - 6510 4y ago
        A point system seems fun and pretty good. A manufacturer could be able to score points by providing a date (any date) at which they intend to end support. Perhaps some extra points if they provide information if it will turn into a brick. (just yes/no scores points) More points for extra years and a proper after-life. We have tons of products and services with a TOS stating things like service is not guaranteed, we are not responsible for damages etc Line by line they make the product more terrible because they have good reason to, any kind of support costs money and no one reads the TOS. If we could however express each of those terms into 2-5 numbers on a score card it would all of a sudden become interesting for the manufacturer to review those. Who knows? Maybe if one of our widgets explodes we should pay up to 1000 dollar worth of damages if it means 10 points in responsibility in stead of -100 If replacement parts or even upgrades makes our brand stick out head and shoulders above the competition in official ratings then we should at least have someone do a powerpoint about it, perhaps even a spreadsheet. Scores for existing devices can be improved later. Lowering them could involve fines and/or compensation. Perhaps there is even some market logic to be had: Perhaps if one is stuck with a low score one should pick cheaper parts that have a similar score in stead of bragging about how awesome some components are. I must have purchased more than 50 iphone chargers by now. The expensive ones break just as fast as the cheap ones. Apple should get lots of points for all the parts of their show they got right but also -1000 for the charger quality. Some of the unofficial ones should probably be rated -5000 which is fine if it costs 5 euro. Even if it costs 20 euro I shouldn't be complaining if durability was rated -5000?
  - saurik 4y ago
    The right to repair is not the same as the right to maintenance or whatever you might want to call forcing the manufacturer to keep updating your device. The issue is when manufacturers make it so that it is impossible for anyone except THEM--actively excluding the so-called "owner" of the device, who somehow doesn't actually have many rights currently (and what thereby needs to be fixed)--to be able to develop fixes or updates.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      What good is the “right to repair” a phone that is insecure?
      - saurik 4y ago
        Using the term "secure" to describe the property "the supposed-owner of the device is disallowed from having any control over the software running on the device" is a perversion of the term; I would prefer the locks on my house be secure in a way that prevents people I don't want to enter my house from getting inside, not in a way that prevents me from daring to using unauthorized furniture or having the gall to replace the door on one of my cabinets... Apple's version of the word "security" seems to often be more about helping developers implement DRM than about helping the user know their data is safe or private.
public_defender 4y ago
What's important here is that right to repair might require an unlockable bootloader so you can install something that does get updates instead of relying on your crappy phone manufacturer's planned obsolescence timeline.
- scarface74 4y ago
  Yes because most users want to depend on a third party to support their phones and not have access to updated Google Play Services.
  - _aavaa_ 4y ago
    - A custom rom can still get updated google play services. - most users currently don’t get support, so idk what you’re arguing for here - you already have to rely on countless 3rd parties in order to use your phone
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Most Android users don’t get support. iOS users can just go to Settings and get official updates from Apple without trawling the internet hoping some volunteers decided to support their phone.
      - _aavaa_ 4y ago
        Until apple decides to no longer update their phone. And then they’re in an even worse position. So if that is cause it’s just an old device and new feature don’t have what they need. But others is a decision they make. Look at the recent redesign of the Reminders app, the fact that the new and old version are incompatible is not because of hardware. Nor is their choice to not backport it.
        scarface74 4y ago
        The iPhone 5s from 2013 got its last security update in September 2021. Can you say the same about an Android device from 2013? The 5s was the first 64 bit iPhone.
andrei_says_ 4y ago
This is obviously bigger than android phones is updates. I’m sorry you don’t feel your particular pet peeve is being addressed on day zero and I’m doubly sorry to see such a negative attitude toward a clearly constructive initiative. Not every single issue will be solved immediately or perfectly. This is about turning a huge ship around - and changing whole industries in the process. Once they change for Europe, the rest of the world is more likely to change, too.
- scarface74 4y ago
  There is no larger market than the smart phone market.
  - tuatoru 4y ago
    Citation needed, I'd say. I'd expect housing, healthcare, education, food, clothing, and transport to be bigger. Anecdotally, I spend more on optical care and on fresh apples and oranges than I do on smartphones most years. Clothing, much more. Housing costs, orders of magnitude more. Or did you mean "confining ourselves to goods with semiconductors in them"? Then cars are a bigger market. Probably kitchen appliances too.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      Yes because “right to repair” is extremely relevant to everything on your list. No, there are not more people in the world that have cars than have mobile phones.
      - unionpivo 4y ago
        It's relevant to cars, computers, kitchen appliances, most other electronics in houses from TVs to clocks to washing machines. Right to repair and android manufacturers being shit are 2 separate issues. And fixing one of those issues is worth it on its own. This would be a win even if they excluded smartphones completely. Not sure what your problem is exactly. You are all ower this thread arguing with everyone. But other the smartphones not being updated, which doe not have much to do with right to repair in first place, you haven't really said really made any argument.
binbashthefash 4y ago
Install one of the many non-OEM distros. PostmarketOS, Ubuntu Touch, Graphene... Harm reduction still happens with non-perfect scenarios.
squarefoot 4y ago
It is much much much more complex than that. I have several old Android tablets that I could use for a hundred projects after installing a proper FOSS operating system and software, from IoT monitoring to communication, media playing, electronics etc. if only their manufacturer didn't tight close them to ensure they become obsolete when they decide so. These devices didn't turn (yet) into a couple Kg of electronic waste just because I know there still is potential to make them useful, but the reality for most people is way different: as soon as a device becomes obsolete, it is thrown in some landfill and replaced. If right to repair would also mean manufacturers forced to unlock bootloaders and release enough documentation so that software can be ported to old devices, the implications will be huge.

Proven 4y ago