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The startup scene is often romanticized as an all-or-nothing endeavor, where you either go all-in and burn the midnight oil or you don’t make it at all. Well,

The startup scene is often romanticized as an all-or-nothing endeavor, where you either go all-in and burn the midnight oil or you don’t make it at all. Well, I think that’s bullshit. There’s nothing wrong with taking things slow, and working on your business on the side while you keep your day job.

rxhernandez 4y ago
I literally thought that was the case until I went full-time on my start-up. I was delusional to think I could do a 9-5 well while trying to build a company. Frankly, I should have realized this was the case when some moderately complex problems felt impossible (because I was giving the best hours of my day to my 9-5).
- rsstack 4y ago
  I think people get confused by the wide spectrum of businesses that the word "start-up" represents. You can't build a VC-backed 10-person B2B company as a side gig. You can build a small profitable SaaS business on a few hours a week.
  - fer_momento 4y ago
    Correct! I may have forgotten to include a disclaimer that I am only referring to first time builders, those who want to build a lifestyle business or just test the waters with a new product idea.
  - enraged_camel 4y ago
    >> You can build a small profitable SaaS business on a few hours a week. Sure but that’s a wide spectrum too. How profitable? Do you want to make $200/mo profit, $2,000/mo or $20,000/mo? You can do the first with a few hours a week. The second, maybe if you’re lucky or have a wide network you can sell to. The last one? I doubt it’s possible with anything less than 20-30 hours a week, at least upfront.
    - mehphp 4y ago
      The second definitely doesn’t require luck. I built a $3k/mo app in a couple hours a day for a few weeks. People think it’s all luck because they build things just hoping someone will buy it and when they don’t “ah well, bad luck on this one”. Instead you need to find a problem people actually have first and then build something to solve that. Then its much more likely that someone will pay for that solution. It is not luck when you hear several people say something like, “I really wish it was easier to do x” and then you build a solution that makes doing x easier. It most certainly is luck if you just think of a random cool idea and it happens to be profitable.
- Silverback_VII 4y ago
  What I don’t not get is that people are often way more productive in their job than when they are trying to do something on their own... I don’t get it insofar that the latter (your own goal, e.g. becoming a writer or your own business) has way more potential in the long run than the former.
  - fer_momento 4y ago
    Most people are more motivated by external factors than internal ones, so they simply work better when they are accountable to someone else. When you are working on your own, there isn't usually anyone making sure that you are actually getting things done.
  - lixtra 4y ago
    One thing might be: In a paid job you can focus on your job. As founder/freelancer you have to handle everything. Some people are good in diving deep but slow to context switching. In best case they can pair with a co-founder that has a good intuition about „good enough“ and handles all the chores. But then a co-founder also adds its own set of problems.
  - bryzaguy 4y ago
    It’s easier to risk failure at things that aren’t important to you is one example. A great book explaining all the reasons why is War of Art by Steven Pressfield.
scottLobster 4y ago
Yeah, also what's wrong with making a product first, marketing it, and seeing if it sells? No need for this landing-page-with-fake-pre-orders lying to your customers overhead. I guess that's the luxury of keeping your day job. If the product doesn't sell, oh well. Bills are still paid. Try again. If you're banking your entire livelihood on the product, you have to know there's at least some chance of success, even if it means alienating potential customers with bullshit
- mooreds 4y ago
  > Yeah, also what's wrong with making a product first, marketing it, and seeing if it sells? It breaks your heart? To spend all kinds of time building something, figuring out the best way to solve a problem, tweaking stuff, banging your head against a wall, all to announce it to the world and then? Crickets? (Source: been there.) Put another, more bloodless way: opportunity cost? Not to say you can't have fun making a product no one wants, but it's more fun to make a product that people want. I hear what you are saying about landing pages lying, but if it says "coming soon" is that a lie (assuming you really plan to build it soon if the demand is there)?
  - scottLobster 4y ago
    And if your requisite level of demand isn't there then "coming soon" is a complete lie. I suppose I would never want to start a business with a product that I didn't at least get some intrinsic benefit out of building. Worst case scenario I learn new skills that can be applied to future endeavors. Besides, if you solve a problem and no one is willing to pay for it, well at least the problem got solved. Maybe that tool will be useful later in some other context. Plus I don't like relationships built on sand. Fake-it-till-you-make-it is to business what steroids/doping are to athletics. Sure maybe it's necessary at the Cutthroat-Business-Olympics where everyone's doing it and you won't win if you don't, but most businesses aren't playing at that level, and do the equivalent of taking Lance-Armstrong-Style blood transfusions to win their local bike club's weekend race.
    - mooreds 4y ago
sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
There are important psychological advantages to going on all in. If you still have a job, every time the going gets tough you can just focus back to your job. Startups typically require much more stress and effort to succeed than jobs do.
- fer_momento 4y ago
  There are both good and bad psychological implications. Personally, for me it allows me to approach my business without the pressure that it needs to be successful. Having a more relaxed attitude prevents me from panicking and making stupid mistakes.
alaaalawi 4y ago
YMMV but either way its for the owners. The rest are more or less in a job
hodgesrm 4y ago
> Well, I think that’s bullshit. I think people underestimate why running a startup is so time-consuming. Having real users with real business needs is like having a family with children. You don't take it easy when your kids hurt themselves or need help with homework. In the same way if a customer is having problems and needs a fix ASAP. In either case if it happens at 5am on Saturday morning you are on the hook to ensure it gets fixed--either do it yourself or roust out others to help, then make sure it gets done right, then make sure it does not happen again. Over time you eliminate common problems. Moreover you can hire people to handle these issues so they don't bubble up all the time. But in the meantime there's no viable way other than putting in a lot of time. p.s. Many startups are blessed with an offering that only needs 9-5 answers. I've never worked in one, though. It sounds really nice. ;)
blueboo 4y ago
Not romanticised — VCs rationally cultivate a standard of founders spending every resource, personal, spiritual, and financial, towards making their investment back 1% more likely. Having a life “Plan B” is taken as a Bad Sign. After all, necessity (and deprivation) is the mother of startup invention, etc. all the better of necessity is existential. And after a day of meetings, the VCs lean back on their chairs and scratch their head over the dismal state of their founders’ mental health…

rxhernandez 4y ago

I literally thought that was the case until I went full-time on my start-up. I was delusional to think I could do a 9-5 well while trying to build a company. Frankly, I should have realized this was the case when some moderately complex problems felt impossible (because I was giving the best hours of my day to my 9-5).

rsstack 4y ago
I think people get confused by the wide spectrum of businesses that the word "start-up" represents. You can't build a VC-backed 10-person B2B company as a side gig. You can build a small profitable SaaS business on a few hours a week.
- fer_momento 4y ago
  Correct! I may have forgotten to include a disclaimer that I am only referring to first time builders, those who want to build a lifestyle business or just test the waters with a new product idea.
- enraged_camel 4y ago
  >> You can build a small profitable SaaS business on a few hours a week. Sure but that’s a wide spectrum too. How profitable? Do you want to make $200/mo profit, $2,000/mo or $20,000/mo? You can do the first with a few hours a week. The second, maybe if you’re lucky or have a wide network you can sell to. The last one? I doubt it’s possible with anything less than 20-30 hours a week, at least upfront.
  - mehphp 4y ago
    The second definitely doesn’t require luck. I built a $3k/mo app in a couple hours a day for a few weeks. People think it’s all luck because they build things just hoping someone will buy it and when they don’t “ah well, bad luck on this one”. Instead you need to find a problem people actually have first and then build something to solve that. Then its much more likely that someone will pay for that solution. It is not luck when you hear several people say something like, “I really wish it was easier to do x” and then you build a solution that makes doing x easier. It most certainly is luck if you just think of a random cool idea and it happens to be profitable.
Silverback_VII 4y ago
What I don’t not get is that people are often way more productive in their job than when they are trying to do something on their own... I don’t get it insofar that the latter (your own goal, e.g. becoming a writer or your own business) has way more potential in the long run than the former.
- fer_momento 4y ago
  Most people are more motivated by external factors than internal ones, so they simply work better when they are accountable to someone else. When you are working on your own, there isn't usually anyone making sure that you are actually getting things done.
- lixtra 4y ago
  One thing might be: In a paid job you can focus on your job. As founder/freelancer you have to handle everything. Some people are good in diving deep but slow to context switching. In best case they can pair with a co-founder that has a good intuition about „good enough“ and handles all the chores. But then a co-founder also adds its own set of problems.
- bryzaguy 4y ago
  It’s easier to risk failure at things that aren’t important to you is one example. A great book explaining all the reasons why is War of Art by Steven Pressfield.

scottLobster 4y ago

Yeah, also what's wrong with making a product first, marketing it, and seeing if it sells? No need for this landing-page-with-fake-pre-orders lying to your customers overhead. I guess that's the luxury of keeping your day job. If the product doesn't sell, oh well. Bills are still paid. Try again. If you're banking your entire livelihood on the product, you have to know there's at least some chance of success, even if it means alienating potential customers with bullshit

mooreds 4y ago
> Yeah, also what's wrong with making a product first, marketing it, and seeing if it sells? It breaks your heart? To spend all kinds of time building something, figuring out the best way to solve a problem, tweaking stuff, banging your head against a wall, all to announce it to the world and then? Crickets? (Source: been there.) Put another, more bloodless way: opportunity cost? Not to say you can't have fun making a product no one wants, but it's more fun to make a product that people want. I hear what you are saying about landing pages lying, but if it says "coming soon" is that a lie (assuming you really plan to build it soon if the demand is there)?
- scottLobster 4y ago
  And if your requisite level of demand isn't there then "coming soon" is a complete lie. I suppose I would never want to start a business with a product that I didn't at least get some intrinsic benefit out of building. Worst case scenario I learn new skills that can be applied to future endeavors. Besides, if you solve a problem and no one is willing to pay for it, well at least the problem got solved. Maybe that tool will be useful later in some other context. Plus I don't like relationships built on sand. Fake-it-till-you-make-it is to business what steroids/doping are to athletics. Sure maybe it's necessary at the Cutthroat-Business-Olympics where everyone's doing it and you won't win if you don't, but most businesses aren't playing at that level, and do the equivalent of taking Lance-Armstrong-Style blood transfusions to win their local bike club's weekend race.
  - mooreds 4y ago

sicp-enjoyer 4y ago

There are important psychological advantages to going on all in. If you still have a job, every time the going gets tough you can just focus back to your job. Startups typically require much more stress and effort to succeed than jobs do.

fer_momento 4y ago
There are both good and bad psychological implications. Personally, for me it allows me to approach my business without the pressure that it needs to be successful. Having a more relaxed attitude prevents me from panicking and making stupid mistakes.

alaaalawi 4y ago

YMMV but either way its for the owners. The rest are more or less in a job

hodgesrm 4y ago

> Well, I think that’s bullshit. I think people underestimate why running a startup is so time-consuming. Having real users with real business needs is like having a family with children. You don't take it easy when your kids hurt themselves or need help with homework. In the same way if a customer is having problems and needs a fix ASAP. In either case if it happens at 5am on Saturday morning you are on the hook to ensure it gets fixed--either do it yourself or roust out others to help, then make sure it gets done right, then make sure it does not happen again. Over time you eliminate common problems. Moreover you can hire people to handle these issues so they don't bubble up all the time. But in the meantime there's no viable way other than putting in a lot of time. p.s. Many startups are blessed with an offering that only needs 9-5 answers. I've never worked in one, though. It sounds really nice. ;)

blueboo 4y ago

Not romanticised — VCs rationally cultivate a standard of founders spending every resource, personal, spiritual, and financial, towards making their investment back 1% more likely. Having a life “Plan B” is taken as a Bad Sign. After all, necessity (and deprivation) is the mother of startup invention, etc. all the better of necessity is existential. And after a day of meetings, the VCs lean back on their chairs and scratch their head over the dismal state of their founders’ mental health…