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How to stay focused while working on your startup and having a 9 to 5

• fer_momento 4y ago
  The startup scene is often romanticized as an all-or-nothing endeavor, where you either go all-in and burn the midnight oil or you don’t make it at all. Well, I think that’s bullshit. There’s nothing wrong with taking things slow, and working on your business on the side while you keep your day job.
  • rxhernandez 4y ago
    I literally thought that was the case until I went full-time on my start-up. I was delusional to think I could do a 9-5 well while trying to build a company. Frankly, I should have realized this was the case when some moderately complex problems felt impossible (because I was giving the best hours of my day to my 9-5).
    • rsstack 4y ago
      I think people get confused by the wide spectrum of businesses that the word "start-up" represents. You can't build a VC-backed 10-person B2B company as a side gig. You can build a small profitable SaaS business on a few hours a week.
      • fer_momento 4y ago
        Correct! I may have forgotten to include a disclaimer that I am only referring to first time builders, those who want to build a lifestyle business or just test the waters with a new product idea.
      • enraged_camel 4y ago
        >> You can build a small profitable SaaS business on a few hours a week. Sure but that’s a wide spectrum too. How profitable? Do you want to make $200/mo profit, $2,000/mo or $20,000/mo? You can do the first with a few hours a week. The second, maybe if you’re lucky or have a wide network you can sell to. The last one? I doubt it’s possible with anything less than 20-30 hours a week, at least upfront.
        • mehphp 4y ago
          The second definitely doesn’t require luck. I built a $3k/mo app in a couple hours a day for a few weeks. People think it’s all luck because they build things just hoping someone will buy it and when they don’t “ah well, bad luck on this one”. Instead you need to find a problem people actually have first and then build something to solve that. Then its much more likely that someone will pay for that solution. It is not luck when you hear several people say something like, “I really wish it was easier to do x” and then you build a solution that makes doing x easier. It most certainly is luck if you just think of a random cool idea and it happens to be profitable.
    • Silverback_VII 4y ago
      What I don’t not get is that people are often way more productive in their job than when they are trying to do something on their own... I don’t get it insofar that the latter (your own goal, e.g. becoming a writer or your own business) has way more potential in the long run than the former.
      • fer_momento 4y ago
        Most people are more motivated by external factors than internal ones, so they simply work better when they are accountable to someone else. When you are working on your own, there isn't usually anyone making sure that you are actually getting things done.
      • lixtra 4y ago
        One thing might be: In a paid job you can focus on your job. As founder/freelancer you have to handle everything. Some people are good in diving deep but slow to context switching. In best case they can pair with a co-founder that has a good intuition about „good enough“ and handles all the chores. But then a co-founder also adds its own set of problems.
      • bryzaguy 4y ago
        It’s easier to risk failure at things that aren’t important to you is one example. A great book explaining all the reasons why is War of Art by Steven Pressfield.
  • scottLobster 4y ago
    Yeah, also what's wrong with making a product first, marketing it, and seeing if it sells? No need for this landing-page-with-fake-pre-orders lying to your customers overhead. I guess that's the luxury of keeping your day job. If the product doesn't sell, oh well. Bills are still paid. Try again. If you're banking your entire livelihood on the product, you have to know there's at least some chance of success, even if it means alienating potential customers with bullshit
    • mooreds 4y ago
      > Yeah, also what's wrong with making a product first, marketing it, and seeing if it sells? It breaks your heart? To spend all kinds of time building something, figuring out the best way to solve a problem, tweaking stuff, banging your head against a wall, all to announce it to the world and then? Crickets? (Source: been there.) Put another, more bloodless way: opportunity cost? Not to say you can't have fun making a product no one wants, but it's more fun to make a product that people want. I hear what you are saying about landing pages lying, but if it says "coming soon" is that a lie (assuming you really plan to build it soon if the demand is there)?
      • scottLobster 4y ago
        And if your requisite level of demand isn't there then "coming soon" is a complete lie. I suppose I would never want to start a business with a product that I didn't at least get some intrinsic benefit out of building. Worst case scenario I learn new skills that can be applied to future endeavors. Besides, if you solve a problem and no one is willing to pay for it, well at least the problem got solved. Maybe that tool will be useful later in some other context. Plus I don't like relationships built on sand. Fake-it-till-you-make-it is to business what steroids/doping are to athletics. Sure maybe it's necessary at the Cutthroat-Business-Olympics where everyone's doing it and you won't win if you don't, but most businesses aren't playing at that level, and do the equivalent of taking Lance-Armstrong-Style blood transfusions to win their local bike club's weekend race.
        • mooreds 4y ago
  • sicp-enjoyer 4y ago
    There are important psychological advantages to going on all in. If you still have a job, every time the going gets tough you can just focus back to your job. Startups typically require much more stress and effort to succeed than jobs do.
    • fer_momento 4y ago
      There are both good and bad psychological implications. Personally, for me it allows me to approach my business without the pressure that it needs to be successful. Having a more relaxed attitude prevents me from panicking and making stupid mistakes.
  • alaaalawi 4y ago
    YMMV but either way its for the owners. The rest are more or less in a job
  • hodgesrm 4y ago
    > Well, I think that’s bullshit. I think people underestimate why running a startup is so time-consuming. Having real users with real business needs is like having a family with children. You don't take it easy when your kids hurt themselves or need help with homework. In the same way if a customer is having problems and needs a fix ASAP. In either case if it happens at 5am on Saturday morning you are on the hook to ensure it gets fixed--either do it yourself or roust out others to help, then make sure it gets done right, then make sure it does not happen again. Over time you eliminate common problems. Moreover you can hire people to handle these issues so they don't bubble up all the time. But in the meantime there's no viable way other than putting in a lot of time. p.s. Many startups are blessed with an offering that only needs 9-5 answers. I've never worked in one, though. It sounds really nice. ;)
  • blueboo 4y ago
    Not romanticised — VCs rationally cultivate a standard of founders spending every resource, personal, spiritual, and financial, towards making their investment back 1% more likely. Having a life “Plan B” is taken as a Bad Sign. After all, necessity (and deprivation) is the mother of startup invention, etc. all the better of necessity is existential. And after a day of meetings, the VCs lean back on their chairs and scratch their head over the dismal state of their founders’ mental health…
• greatpostman 4y ago
  The biggest thing is you need to work in the mornings before work. Also no alcohol
  • papito 4y ago
    Indeed. But you also need the discipline to walk away. If you are going to do startup/work back to back, you must also be able to take a true break on the weekends, or else it's burnout city. You can go a long way on pure passion alone, but your body will check you are some point if you are abusing yourself.
    • fer_momento 4y ago
      +++ This is so important and one of the hardest things for me. I discover that when you schedule for leisure, you are less likely to feel guilty about taking a break.
  • Loeffelmann 4y ago
    Why no alcohol?
• redonkulus 4y ago
  Also no kids or family
  • mrweasel 4y ago
    That to. We shouldn't blame kids for "stealing" our time, it just happens to work out that way. Block out time... Sure and two minutes in: Dad, I got glue on my fingers. This type of article is a little like a weight-loss program that tell you, in a roundabout way, that you just need to workout and eat healthy. All the advise is actually sound enough, but it's also something that most of us already know.
    • tpmx 4y ago
      I don't think anyone is blaming the kids. I mean, the decisions to have the kids were made by adults. I'm in favor of blaming the adults. That said, us nerds probably shouldn't stop reproducing. The intro to Idiocracy (2006) is quite relevant today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP2tUW0HDHA I heard Mike Judge on a podcast about a month ago (JRE) saying that the ability to make that intro was a large factor in his motivation of making the Idiocracy movie in the first place.
      • heurisko 4y ago
        Similar to how environmentalists conscientiously abstaining from children are just serving to remove conscientious people from the gene pool.
        • tpmx 4y ago
          Do you think conscientiousness is heritable?
          • harperlee 4y ago
            Don’t you think values are transmitted from parents to children? I think the “gene pool” phrase is not there to be taken literally…
• brocha 4y ago
  I do wonder what you mean by "get up at 6AM and start working." Do you immediately get out of bed and get on your computer or do you shower/eat/every other morning activity first? Does that mean you work at 6:30 or 6?
  • fer_momento 4y ago
    Basically, yes. I work remotely, so I'm not a huge breakfast guy. I have a banana and yogurt on my desk as a quick breakfast right after I wake up and then start working.
    • hackerlight 4y ago
      You should get some sunlight for your circadian clock
  • nickjj 4y ago
    I don't know about the author's schedule but: I usually wake up at about 6am. I check my email (I do personal support for the courses I run) and then spend 10-15 minutes glancing HN and a few sub-Reddits. That's usually enough time for me to finish drinking some water, all in all now it's about 6:30am. Then I go for a 60-90 minute walk. Then I'll make breakfast while eating at my desk while making about 45-60 minutes of progress on something. This could be planning out this week's video so that all I have to do is record it at a later time, work on some open source project or maybe my course platform. At this point it's close to 9am. Also, sometimes I wake up at 6:30am and I'll walk for an hour instead of 90 minutes. Sometimes I still walk for an hour even if I wake up at 6am because it gives an extra 30 minutes to do something interesting. Then it's close to 9am to start work, I work until 6pm with a 1 hour lunch break in between. Most of the time during that 1 hour break I'll go for a 30min walk and eat lunch. Rather than try to do something productive I use this time to idle. I never walk with podcasts going or listening to music, I just let my brain veg out. I'll also do basic exercise during this time like push ups, sit ups and I've started to jump rope now too. After 6pm I'll make dinner and relax a bit. By 7pm I usually take another 30min walk, then shower. Then I spend about another hour or so trying to do something useful (progress on something, reading, etc.). Then I'll watch a movie from like 9pm to 11pm and goto sleep. My evenings vary. Sometimes I don't put in that extra hour and play video games instead. Sometimes I might decide to eat out with a friend but not really that often. I need more hobbies and I wish covid wasn't a thing anymore because I wouldn't mind doing other things in the evenings but a lot of it is indoors. Needless to say I highly value unplugged walking time where I think about whatever pops up in my mind. It's hard to measure productivity but I'm sure I could probably spend half that amount of time and still get value of it but working 9-6 doesn't leave that much flexibility to break up the day much better.
• woweoe 4y ago
  Something I learn in Japan was that you also need to have friends/people who share the same ideology as you. In Western Europe there would be people who support you making a startup but also EXPECT you to have free time outside working hours. If you work the entire time in Western Europe then you might be considered an outcast.
  • fer_momento 4y ago
    100% true. Luckily for me, I live in Sweden and work life balance here is great, we get +four weeks of vacation and many benefits. So far, I haven't met anyone with the "hustle hustle hustle" attitude that you can find in other parts of the world, and I'm saying that as something positive!
    • lnsru 4y ago
      Lazy West. Leading into already visible decline. I have 30 days regular vacation here in Germany. Plus additional 4 from Big corp I work for. Plus take all overtime as vacation days giving me another dozen free days. Basically no time for work. Days with meetings or time off. My boss from Asia shares my “hustle hustle hustle” attitude and I love it.
      • washadjeffmad 4y ago
        If you're challenged to fit a year's worth of work into 9½ months and are still bored, that sounds like a fantastic opportunity to build something you're passionate about.
  • O__________O 4y ago
    Curious, you mentioned Japan, was there something specific about Japan that differed from Western Europe in your experience?
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • 4y ago
• pj_mukh 4y ago
  One simple suggestion missing: “Get paying customers, and take payment” It’s not always possible but it is in most situations. A lot of (especially enterprise) customers are happy to front you money to build something they really need. Be up front about this. The moment you do this, most other things with respect to prioritization + focus fall into place. YC says this often.
• papito 4y ago
  Not to get political, but I was working heads down on my project back in 2015, for hours in the morning at once. Then MAGA came to D.C., and I knew I had only a couple of months left of true, serene, focused work - while the adults were still winding things down. Boy, was I right. Ever since then I have not been able to focus. Everything is on fire, all the time. I envy the people who can tune out the world and pretend as if we are not living in a historic time, in the middle of a shift toward something very likely not good.
  • rr808 4y ago
    > Everything is on fire, all the time. I envy the people who can tune out the world and pretend as if we are not living in a historic time, I can understand but its always been this way. Financial collapse in 2008 was probably more stressful for most people. 9/11 and wars in ME. Dotcom bubble. Gulf war. Crash of 87. Iron curtain coming down and dissolution of USSR. Economic upheaval of Reagan. 70s economic collapse, crime wave, Nixon/Watergate, war in Vietnam. Nuclear war threat. End of segregation in the 60s, WW2 etc etc The only difference now is that we're more wired.
    • clcaev 4y ago
      None of these compare to a presidential candidate who publicly muses about being a dictator and is elected anyway... and this was only foreshadowing what he orchestrated on Jan 6th.
    • papito 4y ago
      You can't just list big events and compare them with what is happening today. Having grown up in the USSR, it is rather different for me when I watch the United States democracy coming to an end. It is absolutely not the same. But then again, if you are a native-born, I can see how it's easy to have no idea about what is happening or where this is going.
  • whiddershins 4y ago
    Unless you are coherently doing something about it, or planning to, thinking about it is is self harm at worst, entertainment at best.
• zhte415 4y ago
  Exercise. Don't drink. Eat well. Skip news/media that adds nothing. Read vociferously. Get plenty of rest time. Appreciate the downtime because it's not downtime it's valuable reflection time. Doing several slow things at the same time works. Examples: Walk to the subway, bus. Don't be in a hurry. When getting to the stop, take 3 or 4 minutes to chill and appreciate the sky, plants, whatever you have. Wake up earlier so as not to be in a hurry. Eat satiably. Cook if you like. Cook a little more and take a packed lunch. Cook for loved ones. Take the stairs not the escalator. Read a book on the subway about something completely different than your 'jobs'. Listen to a quality podcast while doing morning stretching or abs. Wish others a nice day. Being positive breeds positivity. Plan ahead minimising catch-up. Engage in office banter, do more. Always be the owner. Synergies happen in the funniest of places. Never feel guilty for reading around or into a subject more than's needed. Don't feel guilty for not knowing something. Give time generously. Take lots of breaks. Laugh vigorously when realising something was so simple. Take another break. Do not work a job that measures you on time. Drink plenty of water. Never forget what's most important for you.
  • pipeline_peak 4y ago
    What’s the difference between news media that adds/doesn’t add benefit?
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    • dismantlethesun 4y ago
      General tech news adds no benefit. However, news specific to your industry segment can add benefit. For example, knowing a gas pipeline is shut down leading to temporarily high gas prices is useful if you are in logistics. However knowing that Intel just made a faster chip is not so useful. Similarly, the political stage of Belize is only useful if you have work or family that is impacts by that. Just knowing it otherwise is only useful for fun conversations.
      • lotsofpulp 4y ago
• streetcat1 4y ago
  Don't waste your time. You are trying to make a baby with a Cxx on. You will never finish with a day job. I work full time on a startup / 15 hours a day / 7 days a week , and still not have time.
  • fer_momento 4y ago
    Depends of what you want to build. Going all-in is a valid option but not the only one. It is possible to have a job, get 8+ hours of sleep, and also run a profitable side project. This is especially important for first time founders.
    • deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
• wahnfrieden 4y ago
  Try reading r/overemployed for inspiration and tricks
  • fer_momento 4y ago
    In some ways, working on my startup is like playing video games for me - it's just too much fun. But burnout might come from not being able to work on it, actually.
• rr808 4y ago
  Who are these people? Run home at 5:30 to pickup the kids from after school childcare, cook dinner then help them with homework? Help their parents? Mow the lawn, paint the bathroom, service the car, do the taxes, shop the groceries, get a health checkup, get a tooth fixed, visit the neighbors. Who has time for a startup with a job?
  • pipeline_peak 4y ago
    Ideally people without kids, most of the things you listed either could be paid for or avoided.
    • rr808 4y ago
      Yeah if you spend all your time on startup and not with your girlfriend you wont be getting kids either. ;-)
      • pipeline_peak 4y ago
        I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Zuckerberg, Bezos, and Musk are said to have these “alien/robotic” personalities. I don’t believe it’s a simple as “well that’s cus they’re programmers”.
        • rolisz 4y ago
          Eh, Musk has plenty of kids :)))
          • pipeline_peak 4y ago
            Eh, born after he became wealthy, taken care by nannies, and scattered across like 3 wives. His 18 year old daughter went to court to legally separate herself. :)))
  • wnolens 4y ago
    Many people have no kids, or no parents (passed, or in another country), or live in a city (no yard, no car). The shape of their life is much different than yours. The lack of responsibility by comparison allows for this sort of venture to be prioritized. My life is like this (minus the startup, which sounds like a terrible time sink to me)
• kamaal 4y ago
  I've done this in the past for years and it ain't fun. Eventually you will burn out working 18 hr workdays, without breaks, vacations, family time, exercise and if you don't see much financial success at the end you will suffer a total disappointment with yourself and your life. That is if you are lucky enough to not run into health and financial issues before all this. Besides the idea that working too hard automatically means success is just plain wrong. Money is not a linear function of effort. And real life success even in regular jobs depends on luck and things like office politics for the most part. If anything working too hard will make your boss envious of you, and will work against your best interest. YMMV.
  • fer_momento 4y ago
    I would never advise someone to work 18 hour days, especially if they already have financial stability from a full-time job. There's no need to rush it - taking it slowly is also valid.
• synergy20 4y ago
  I tried a full time job and moonlighting, exhausted, in the end I left the job and did contracting for a few years, just too hard to handle both in parallel. I then tried the 9-5 plus startup game after work, it's less stressing on the workload side(I can manage my startup time unlike the moonlighting where clients sometimes have deadlines), but the even bigger hassle now is interrupts from kids, it's impossible to stay focused when I'm at home due to that. I respect anyone that has a few kids while having a 9-5 while somehow can take a startup off the ground. For those who devoted to career without kids or even marriage, we're in a different world, and there is not much for apple to apple comparison.
  • n_cusan 4y ago
    Very much agree, having kids has totally changed the way I work. I definitely have less time to do side projects and have to heavily coordinate with my wife when I want to work on a side project. On the other hand I have had the experience that I am much more focused when I have the time as it has become more precious in a way. My motivation to create something new that could potentially benefit my children is also much higher. Just have to be careful not to convert motivation to self-pressure. It can be a thin line sometimes.
    • xwowsersx 4y ago
      I think there is really something to the idea that as time becomes more precious, you use it more productively. It reminds me in a way of the idea that constraints, for example in art, are where true creativity comes from. Having absolutely no boundaries at all isn't actually a recipe for great artistic expression. It's a loose analogy, but in somewhat the same manner, when you feel absolutely no limitations or demands on your time, you simply squander it. I think someone once said that if you really want something done, find the busiest person you know and ask them to do it. As counterintuitive as this seems, it's very true in my personal experience. People who are busy and who have a lot of demands on their time are quicker to stop starting and start finishing.
      • synergy20 4y ago
• npalli 4y ago
  It would be good if there was common agreement that startup is a special type of new business who purpose is to scale rapidly and faces uncertainty and high rates of failure. There is usually high upfront investment needed (whether R&D or customer acquisition) and the revenue will follow much later. This type of business is an all-in affair, cant do it part time. Even wiki is now up to date with this definition [1]. This is to be distinguished from new businesses that do not intend to have rapid growth (even go beyond solo founder) and are in stable markets (used to be called small businesses). The OP seems to be running what I would call a small business which is not exactly a startup so why is he trying to tell us he is doing something special. For example, pretty sure I can make a case he is already working too much for his busines, maybe play guitar some weekdays, take some time off. There will be minimal impact to business. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_company
• Silverback_VII 4y ago
  It's all-or-nothing (if you have to keep your job to pay the bills so be it) otherwise the forces who want to hold you back will be too strong. You will most notably see it in your own social circle or family. People will put a spoke in your wheel in crucial moments or as soon as you want to take off. If you have not a strong will to move forward this will get you. Even little and well-meant stuff like "you need a break", "you need sleep" or "you need a balanced life" are ways of them(and also yourself) to sabotage your efforts. Depression is the result of lack of progress/purpose and not of too much work or lack of sleep. Therefore the best it to optimize always with the goal in mind.
  • _gabe_ 4y ago
    > You will most notably see it in your own social circle or family. People will put a spoke in your wheel in crucial moments or as soon as you want to take off. If you have not a strong will to move forward this will get you. Perhaps they're not trying to "sabotage your efforts", but instead, they are the ones who know you best and can see the effect overworking is having on you. It's amazing how much perspective shifts from the person in the thick of it to the observer.
• habosa 4y ago
  I’ve been working on my “startup” (codeapprove.com) in addition to my full time job and busy social life for about 18 months now (no kids though, before anyone asks). Finding time to build the thing hasn’t been all that hard. A few hours a week is actually a lot if you’ve already pre-solved some problems in your mind during downtime and you’re really just cranking out work with few blockers. The hard part is customers. Acquiring them and keeping them can’t really be scheduled. This requires random bursts of time and energy when you least expect it that can be pretty incompatible with a normal job. Maybe if you’re really good at marketing and UX you can find ways to passively get self-service customers but most people who can build software lack those skills. And still, someone has to do customer support. So I ended up with the classic hacker’s folly: a great product with few users. Oh well, I love building it.
• dustingetz 4y ago
  I did this for 27 months, from 2019 – 2021! I'm in my 30s & no kids (dedicated my life to the startup – which is table stakes these days). I'm in the USA and a key was to work with UK/Euro engineers for the startup, which let me arbitrage both COL and especially timezone. COL wise I fit two uk/euro eng salaries + my own humble costs into my USA eng salary. Timezone wise I got on zoom to Europe from 7am-9am ET Weds-Fri and 7am-12pm on weekends. Which left me weekend afternoons for my own startup deliverables – we had a long term paid pilot which my team supported but I had to personally deliver to ensure success. Living wise, for the six months leading Covid I had to be in the work office in Baltimore, which was 2 hours away from my home near Philadelphia, so I had a second apartment 10 mins from work/gym where I lived Monday – Thursday. This made it really easy to focus as there was nothing to do but work, exercise, eat, read and do email, talk to fiancee, go to bed, zoom at 7am. If anything, WFH starting in 2020 made it harder to focus. I also don't drink. Relationship wise, the startup existed before my relationship and deeply influenced mate selection/compatibility. Job wise I was an eng manager / product manager for an early stage cloud product which I shepherded from concept to post-revenue and early sales, it was not a soft FAANG job, it was intense but I was able to get everything done in 40 hours a week, near flawless delivery, never dropped a ball. Yes I am uniquely skilled/driven but most founders are, that's why you're doing it right? Burnout was not really an issue for me, probably because of deep belief and conviction in the startup and willingness to do "whatever it takes" to succeed. (We are succeeding, btw!). Mental health wise, through Covid we all gained weight and I had some depression due to the relentless beating of corporate life. Hired a psychologist to help me process those frustrations and also work through my everyday failings as an entrepreneur (also normal). Eventually the startup made enough progress to raise some money and transition out of the job, but I think I could have sustained it indefinitely if that's what it took.
  • syndacks 4y ago
• dimitrios1 4y ago
  This is my 4th or 5th go at attempting to bootstrap a product with a 9 to 5 (and now kids), the "stick to your framework" advice is very good. It's a lesson that I learned the hard way. Such a tendency to make excuses and say "well I am doing professional development as well" or "this is also a learning exercise" -- well maybe, but also, if you ever want an actual product to see the light of day, you eventually just need to live with the stack you chose and go for it. My goal now isn't to use the latest cutting edge stack, and keep it updated to be even more bleeding edge. My goal now is to have something that I can say is "legacy" and needs updates.
• adrianmsmith 4y ago
  It would be good to know how successful the author's startup was/is. I mean OK one can follow this advice and get work on the startup done, but is it enough to make a successful startup, or was it all the effort just a waste of time at the end of it?
• skeeter2020 4y ago
  > You need to have a healthy balance of work, leisure, and taking care of your health. > If you feel like you don’t have enough time, it’s probably because you’re not focusing on the right things. > But if you feel like you’re starting to burn out, take it easy and unplug for a little while. Unpopular opinion perhaps, but maybe you can't do it all? If you're working full-time and have any sort of family or personal life you can't do anything that's truly a start-up. This is OK. You can have a fun side project, you can even make money at it, but it ain't a start-up.
• enviclash 4y ago
  IMHO the question is, for how long can you do it? And perhaps, until what age?
• glouwbug 4y ago
  Work from home on your startup during your office hours like everyone else on HackerNews
• darepublic 4y ago
  No mention of marriage or kids. Try juggling that on top of the 9 to 5.