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I'm one of the people he talks about who moved from diehard Emacs use slowly to more and more VSCode use largely due to the better UI experience around debuggin

I'm one of the people he talks about who moved from diehard Emacs use slowly to more and more VSCode use largely due to the better UI experience around debugging and integration of a lot of modern tools. His point about features not being used when they're complicated to reach despite people claiming that they'll use them is a true observation in particular. You always can set up a lot of those features in your unix-style environments, but you're just not as likely to use them if the experience is somewhat scuffed. As a sidenote I wonder if he's ever used Pharo, it seems like the kind of thing he'd like.

baby 4y ago
Same here, sort of. I've been using like 30 IDEs throughout my life, and chose emacs over vim during the period I was trying to stay within the terminal, but VSCode is the best IDE I've ever used period.
- wiseowise 4y ago
  Have you tried IntelliJ products?
  - girvo 4y ago
    I have, and previous to that I was a big fan of Komodo IDE. One weird feature that I love from both VSCode and Komodo is the ability to open a folder as a project, no need for an actual project file or other IDE specific handling of it that older style IDEs always seemed to a require. The feature set of the IntelliJ products are quite excellent of course, but for whatever reason my need for some weird IDE-editor hybrid where the filesystem is what matters, not the project, always meant I bounced off them.
    - zo1 4y ago
      I regularly open folders as projects and the intellij (pycharm in my case) IDE creates it as a project without hassle. Just add a bit of a script to cleanup any ide project cruft it creates and I'd say you're mostly there. Compared to all I get from a real ide, VSCode is like a stone age dinosaur.
      - Kiro 4y ago
        Sounds horrible. Just let me open a folder without it being a project or having to use a script to clean up stuff (wtf?).
        kalleboo 4y ago
        I use an IntelliJ IDE and open folders all the time and it's never created any cruft to clean up. I think that only shows up if you start making project configurations (like file watchers to run preprocessors for web languages)
        evol262 4y ago
        It still makes a .idea folder to add to .gitignore or clean up, just as .vscode makes a .vscode folder. I don't see this as a lot different than MacOS spraying .DS_STORE files everywhere. It's not a big deal to add to .gitignore, but it does leave a fingerprint. It's just that tries to determine reasonable defaults if the path doesn't exist instead of Netbeans/Eclipse/whatever forcing you to pick them with a wizard if you want any of the "real" features to work.
        lostmsu 4y ago
        VS Code creates a project though: .vscode folder.
        nickersonm 4y ago
        Only if you make workspace-specific settings changes.
        stjohnswarts 4y ago
        or be forced to bend to their idea of what a project is and which build tools I need to be using, I concur 100%.
  - baby 4y ago
    Yeah, half of my coworkers used to be on CLion (for Rust). TBH I couldn't get past the fact that it reminds me of Java IDEs with too many things going on. What's better compared to VSCode?
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      VSCode is very, very bare bones compared to what JetBrains can offer in terms of refactoring, debugging, and code analysis (for major languages). It's hard to start at anything specific :)
      - lostmsu 4y ago
        For Rust I found CLion to have no improvement over VS Code.
      - kunos 4y ago
        Not for Rust tho. VSCode+Rust Analyzer offers an amazing experience and I found it to be on-par if not better than IntelliJ/Clion with a much more responsive editing, startup times and task customization.
      - baby 4y ago
        Considering that JetBrains doesn't use rust-analyzer I have a hard time imagining that it's better, more that it's worse :o
      - rudnevr 4y ago
        Absolutely, and I wonder how people who are not professional in both IDEs can compare. Typically VSCode + plugins + some additional software from old time like BeyondCompare etc. poorly make up Intellij's core functionality. I haven't seen a single person who seriously used both and went back. Search, VCS, keymapping, defaults, heuristics, refactoring wide of use, AI-based autocompletion - there's simply no real adversary. Last time I was blasted when copying an old DB to a one in a new DB it correctly guessed the renamed columns based partly on type and size, partly on column names. Also I love its suggestions so much that when learning a new language I always look at Jetbrains' respective autosuggestions - simply because it makes me a better programmer, faster.
- reillyse 4y ago
  Yes me too. I started with basic and then up through Microsoft products, swore off them for emacs for years and am now on vs code cause it works so damn well. That in itself says how well it works.
- d0mine 4y ago
  30 IDEs seems like a lot. Could you share why have you switched between so many? Could you list several specific points that make VSCode preferable over emacs.
  - baby 4y ago
    I guess I’ve been programming since I was very young, so I went through a lot of horrible things like frontpage, dreamweaver, notepad++, and then a number of them per language (phpstorm, and other php IDEs, java IDEs, etc.) The biggest selling point for me for vscode is good defaults (I like vanilla configurations to get started fast on new machines) and discoverability. I want to be able to install 10 plugins and try all of them in a few minutes, and learn shortcuts as I use the plugin (with emacs each extension is an investment)
    - d0mine 4y ago
      Agreed, on approachable defaults for VSCode. I found use-package, try elisp packages make it easy to try new packages in emacs. https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package https://github.com/larstvei/Try https://github.com/larstvei/Try
NGRhodes 4y ago
Linus Torvalds likes the fact Kernel debugging is not user friendly so that it does not detract from good programming practice, making sure you really understand your code and what it should do before having to resort to a debugger. https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/9/6/65 https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/9/6/65
- mongol 4y ago
  Yes I also thought about that. Two programming gurus on opposite sides of a spectrum. I find it refreshing.
  - jbverschoor 4y ago
    Anyone who says a tool is better when it’s shittier is just insane or has a huge ego to protect
- vlovich123 4y ago
  That note always struck me as pride in self flagellation. Having been around many talented kernel developers, most are perfectly happy with a debugger or any other tool they can use to debug something.
  - teddyh 4y ago
    “Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.” — Brian Kernighan
    - frou_dh 4y ago
      That doesn't really refute the point that Carmack made. Namely that a lot of the supposed inherent difficulty in the endeavour of debugging is actually incidental from a general cultural attachment to crap old tooling.
      - 4y ago
heynowheynow 4y ago
VSCode is based on Electron, a glorified hack/resource hog of Chromium than even Github largely abandoned. It maybe "great" and mildly "popular" here and there, but it's built on a foundation of mud. Build native apps that work and are performant. With enough effort and care, a frictionless experience can be made with a TUI should some "Jetbrains" come along and try to make a commercial product out of it.
- nkzd 4y ago
  Mildly "popular"? Which editor is more popular than VSCode?
  - smolder 4y ago
    By number of installs, maybe vim :)
    - latency-guy2 4y ago
      If we go by this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... Then it has to be Windows Notepad. Android does not have a default text editor, if it did then I'd agree.
    - jasonm23 4y ago
      ed
  - pm3003 4y ago
    Notepad++?
    - ctvo 4y ago
      The Windows only text editor is more popular than VSCode?
- marmada 4y ago
  This is the most "just use rsync instead of Dropbox" HN-style argument I've ever heard. It's sufficiently comical to be satire
koonsolo 4y ago
I ended up with the best of both worlds (subjective of course!). I use VSCode with a Vim plugin. I get all the best keystrokes from Vim, and the GUI of VSCode. For me, going to Vim would be worse, and going to plain VSCode would be worse.
- jalino23 4y ago
  except macros doesnt work! and the multiline editing from vs code doesnt work anymore. unless you got both to work?
  - FPGAhacker 4y ago
    They both work fine for me most of the time. There are edge cases but I can’t think of a specific right now. When I run into one, which isn’t that often anymore, I’ll open vscode’s terminal panel and do a quick edit in nvim there.
  - koonsolo 4y ago
    For me I don't use macro's that much. I remeber they worked fine in the Visual Studio plugin, but not sure VSCode. If I really need it for a file, I can always quickly open gvim itself. If you use it in your daily workflow, then it might be an issue indeed. But I don't see a reason why a plugin couldn't offer that (like the Visual Studio plugin). Vim multiline editing works fine :). Not sure what the VSCode offers thoug (maybe I'm missing out)
- tingol 4y ago
  I went the other way, as soon as VSCode-like language server protocol was available for neovim I dropped VSCode. Now I have the same speed with modern features too. In the end it's what's best for you that counts, having quality options helps a lot.
  - robenkleene 4y ago
    Do you have debugging setup in Vim? (If so, I'd love to hear what that looks like!)
iforgotpassword 4y ago
I tried VScode twice and despise it. Cold never get it to be much more useful than a text editor with syntax highlighting. Tried setting it up for java and even with fiddling and tweaking it didn't work nearly as well as the default eclipse setup regarding code navigation and maven integration. It felt just like trying to get vim to be modern and useful. Maybe possible, but a lot of effort when there is other solutions that work right out of the box. Second try was for PHP, and that was even more futile. For PHP it actually seems like jetbrains is the only one providing an ide that doesn't make you lose your mind with that language, so not necessarily a sign that VScode in particular is bad. For C++ I never even tried it because I'm usually content with qt creator.
- kuxv 4y ago
  Qt creator is awesome for C++ development. It is so crazy fast, especially when compared to Visual Studio.
- lostmsu 4y ago
  Java, C++, and C# have best in class IDEs. But for other languages, especially dynamic ones, VS Code is close or better than a dedicated IDE.
lmedinas 4y ago
I have a similar experience, I started to use Emacs with my first Linux installation way back in the late 90s together with pico (later nano for fast editing). A few years ago i came to know about sublime text and I was astonished how much can be done with it and how quick it was compared to Emacs. Sure it does not contain all the goodies Emacs has but i after getting sublime text i realized how much time i saved and focusing on code. Recently i stop bothering and moved to VSCODE and its pretty damn good. I miss sometimes Emacs but i prefer to use VSCODE nowadays as its a much modern environment and brings me directly to the point of comfort. I also tried Neovim but i was not convinced to replace VSCODE, i mostly use it on the console for quick and dirty editing.
Asooka 4y ago
I've used IDEs, but just keep ending up using vim. With fzf, ctags, clangd and YouCompleteMe, it's a very productive tool for C++. The two things I really miss from Visual Studio are the easy project setup - writing cmake by hand isn't very fun and debugging why it isn't generating what you want is a pain ; and the great visual debugger - nothing I have tried on Linux is as comfortable as GDB's TUI, which isn't very comfortable to begin with, though the capabilities unlocked by the python bindings are unmatched. I've used GDB's python features to great effect to continually monitor the program and stop when it reaches the invalid state I'm interested in, while logging back traces of interesting points.
- triyambakam 4y ago
  You should check out some of the new plugins that use the LSP - it's the same thing used by VS Code but available to any editor. Conqueror of Completion (Coc) is what I use and is very popular. It's even better than YCM
mark_l_watson 4y ago
I found myself using VSCode instead of Emacs when browsing a lot of files. Just recently I added treemacs to my Emacs setup so my use of VSCode is much reduced. I also took the small effort to setup GitHub Copilot to work with Emacs - for some types of work, Copilot is a real time saver for Common Lisp and Python work. I would also like his take on Pharo, which I like and many years ago released an open source NLP library for Pharo.
stjohnswarts 4y ago
It's just easier, it's not as powerful but it is "good enough" and much less steep learning curve.
hombre_fatal 4y ago
I'm also one of those people. I learned both Vim and then Emacs + evil-mode, used them for a decade, and then one day I changed computers, couldn't be bothered to set up .vim/.emacs.d and stopped using them except for Vim for topical config edits. Now I like to have a GUI that has things like a right-click menu instead of having to rely on maintaining muscle memory for everything. Of course, another part of that, I think, is becoming older. Mastering some aspect of the computer or software like Vim just isn't interesting to me like it used to be.

baby 4y ago

Same here, sort of. I've been using like 30 IDEs throughout my life, and chose emacs over vim during the period I was trying to stay within the terminal, but VSCode is the best IDE I've ever used period.

wiseowise 4y ago
Have you tried IntelliJ products?
- girvo 4y ago
  I have, and previous to that I was a big fan of Komodo IDE. One weird feature that I love from both VSCode and Komodo is the ability to open a folder as a project, no need for an actual project file or other IDE specific handling of it that older style IDEs always seemed to a require. The feature set of the IntelliJ products are quite excellent of course, but for whatever reason my need for some weird IDE-editor hybrid where the filesystem is what matters, not the project, always meant I bounced off them.
  - zo1 4y ago
    I regularly open folders as projects and the intellij (pycharm in my case) IDE creates it as a project without hassle. Just add a bit of a script to cleanup any ide project cruft it creates and I'd say you're mostly there. Compared to all I get from a real ide, VSCode is like a stone age dinosaur.
    - Kiro 4y ago
      Sounds horrible. Just let me open a folder without it being a project or having to use a script to clean up stuff (wtf?).
      - kalleboo 4y ago
        I use an IntelliJ IDE and open folders all the time and it's never created any cruft to clean up. I think that only shows up if you start making project configurations (like file watchers to run preprocessors for web languages)
        evol262 4y ago
        It still makes a .idea folder to add to .gitignore or clean up, just as .vscode makes a .vscode folder. I don't see this as a lot different than MacOS spraying .DS_STORE files everywhere. It's not a big deal to add to .gitignore, but it does leave a fingerprint. It's just that tries to determine reasonable defaults if the path doesn't exist instead of Netbeans/Eclipse/whatever forcing you to pick them with a wizard if you want any of the "real" features to work.
      - lostmsu 4y ago
        VS Code creates a project though: .vscode folder.
        nickersonm 4y ago
        Only if you make workspace-specific settings changes.
      - stjohnswarts 4y ago
        or be forced to bend to their idea of what a project is and which build tools I need to be using, I concur 100%.
- baby 4y ago
  Yeah, half of my coworkers used to be on CLion (for Rust). TBH I couldn't get past the fact that it reminds me of Java IDEs with too many things going on. What's better compared to VSCode?
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    VSCode is very, very bare bones compared to what JetBrains can offer in terms of refactoring, debugging, and code analysis (for major languages). It's hard to start at anything specific :)
    - lostmsu 4y ago
      For Rust I found CLion to have no improvement over VS Code.
    - kunos 4y ago
      Not for Rust tho. VSCode+Rust Analyzer offers an amazing experience and I found it to be on-par if not better than IntelliJ/Clion with a much more responsive editing, startup times and task customization.
    - baby 4y ago
      Considering that JetBrains doesn't use rust-analyzer I have a hard time imagining that it's better, more that it's worse :o
    - rudnevr 4y ago
      Absolutely, and I wonder how people who are not professional in both IDEs can compare. Typically VSCode + plugins + some additional software from old time like BeyondCompare etc. poorly make up Intellij's core functionality. I haven't seen a single person who seriously used both and went back. Search, VCS, keymapping, defaults, heuristics, refactoring wide of use, AI-based autocompletion - there's simply no real adversary. Last time I was blasted when copying an old DB to a one in a new DB it correctly guessed the renamed columns based partly on type and size, partly on column names. Also I love its suggestions so much that when learning a new language I always look at Jetbrains' respective autosuggestions - simply because it makes me a better programmer, faster.
reillyse 4y ago
Yes me too. I started with basic and then up through Microsoft products, swore off them for emacs for years and am now on vs code cause it works so damn well. That in itself says how well it works.
d0mine 4y ago
30 IDEs seems like a lot. Could you share why have you switched between so many? Could you list several specific points that make VSCode preferable over emacs.
- baby 4y ago
  I guess I’ve been programming since I was very young, so I went through a lot of horrible things like frontpage, dreamweaver, notepad++, and then a number of them per language (phpstorm, and other php IDEs, java IDEs, etc.) The biggest selling point for me for vscode is good defaults (I like vanilla configurations to get started fast on new machines) and discoverability. I want to be able to install 10 plugins and try all of them in a few minutes, and learn shortcuts as I use the plugin (with emacs each extension is an investment)
  - d0mine 4y ago
    Agreed, on approachable defaults for VSCode. I found use-package, try elisp packages make it easy to try new packages in emacs. https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package https://github.com/jwiegley/use-package https://github.com/larstvei/Try https://github.com/larstvei/Try

NGRhodes 4y ago

Linus Torvalds likes the fact Kernel debugging is not user friendly so that it does not detract from good programming practice, making sure you really understand your code and what it should do before having to resort to a debugger. https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/9/6/65 https://lkml.org/lkml/2000/9/6/65

mongol 4y ago
Yes I also thought about that. Two programming gurus on opposite sides of a spectrum. I find it refreshing.
- jbverschoor 4y ago
  Anyone who says a tool is better when it’s shittier is just insane or has a huge ego to protect
vlovich123 4y ago
That note always struck me as pride in self flagellation. Having been around many talented kernel developers, most are perfectly happy with a debugger or any other tool they can use to debug something.
- teddyh 4y ago
  “Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it.” — Brian Kernighan
  - frou_dh 4y ago
    That doesn't really refute the point that Carmack made. Namely that a lot of the supposed inherent difficulty in the endeavour of debugging is actually incidental from a general cultural attachment to crap old tooling.
    - 4y ago

heynowheynow 4y ago

VSCode is based on Electron, a glorified hack/resource hog of Chromium than even Github largely abandoned. It maybe "great" and mildly "popular" here and there, but it's built on a foundation of mud. Build native apps that work and are performant. With enough effort and care, a frictionless experience can be made with a TUI should some "Jetbrains" come along and try to make a commercial product out of it.

nkzd 4y ago
Mildly "popular"? Which editor is more popular than VSCode?
- smolder 4y ago
  By number of installs, maybe vim :)
  - latency-guy2 4y ago
    If we go by this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... Then it has to be Windows Notepad. Android does not have a default text editor, if it did then I'd agree.
  - jasonm23 4y ago
    ed
- pm3003 4y ago
  Notepad++?
  - ctvo 4y ago
    The Windows only text editor is more popular than VSCode?
marmada 4y ago
This is the most "just use rsync instead of Dropbox" HN-style argument I've ever heard. It's sufficiently comical to be satire

koonsolo 4y ago

I ended up with the best of both worlds (subjective of course!). I use VSCode with a Vim plugin. I get all the best keystrokes from Vim, and the GUI of VSCode. For me, going to Vim would be worse, and going to plain VSCode would be worse.

jalino23 4y ago
except macros doesnt work! and the multiline editing from vs code doesnt work anymore. unless you got both to work?
- FPGAhacker 4y ago
  They both work fine for me most of the time. There are edge cases but I can’t think of a specific right now. When I run into one, which isn’t that often anymore, I’ll open vscode’s terminal panel and do a quick edit in nvim there.
- koonsolo 4y ago
  For me I don't use macro's that much. I remeber they worked fine in the Visual Studio plugin, but not sure VSCode. If I really need it for a file, I can always quickly open gvim itself. If you use it in your daily workflow, then it might be an issue indeed. But I don't see a reason why a plugin couldn't offer that (like the Visual Studio plugin). Vim multiline editing works fine :). Not sure what the VSCode offers thoug (maybe I'm missing out)
tingol 4y ago
I went the other way, as soon as VSCode-like language server protocol was available for neovim I dropped VSCode. Now I have the same speed with modern features too. In the end it's what's best for you that counts, having quality options helps a lot.
- robenkleene 4y ago
  Do you have debugging setup in Vim? (If so, I'd love to hear what that looks like!)

iforgotpassword 4y ago

I tried VScode twice and despise it. Cold never get it to be much more useful than a text editor with syntax highlighting. Tried setting it up for java and even with fiddling and tweaking it didn't work nearly as well as the default eclipse setup regarding code navigation and maven integration. It felt just like trying to get vim to be modern and useful. Maybe possible, but a lot of effort when there is other solutions that work right out of the box. Second try was for PHP, and that was even more futile. For PHP it actually seems like jetbrains is the only one providing an ide that doesn't make you lose your mind with that language, so not necessarily a sign that VScode in particular is bad. For C++ I never even tried it because I'm usually content with qt creator.

kuxv 4y ago
Qt creator is awesome for C++ development. It is so crazy fast, especially when compared to Visual Studio.
lostmsu 4y ago
Java, C++, and C# have best in class IDEs. But for other languages, especially dynamic ones, VS Code is close or better than a dedicated IDE.

lmedinas 4y ago

I have a similar experience, I started to use Emacs with my first Linux installation way back in the late 90s together with pico (later nano for fast editing). A few years ago i came to know about sublime text and I was astonished how much can be done with it and how quick it was compared to Emacs. Sure it does not contain all the goodies Emacs has but i after getting sublime text i realized how much time i saved and focusing on code. Recently i stop bothering and moved to VSCODE and its pretty damn good. I miss sometimes Emacs but i prefer to use VSCODE nowadays as its a much modern environment and brings me directly to the point of comfort. I also tried Neovim but i was not convinced to replace VSCODE, i mostly use it on the console for quick and dirty editing.

Asooka 4y ago

I've used IDEs, but just keep ending up using vim. With fzf, ctags, clangd and YouCompleteMe, it's a very productive tool for C++. The two things I really miss from Visual Studio are the easy project setup - writing cmake by hand isn't very fun and debugging why it isn't generating what you want is a pain ; and the great visual debugger - nothing I have tried on Linux is as comfortable as GDB's TUI, which isn't very comfortable to begin with, though the capabilities unlocked by the python bindings are unmatched. I've used GDB's python features to great effect to continually monitor the program and stop when it reaches the invalid state I'm interested in, while logging back traces of interesting points.

triyambakam 4y ago
You should check out some of the new plugins that use the LSP - it's the same thing used by VS Code but available to any editor. Conqueror of Completion (Coc) is what I use and is very popular. It's even better than YCM

mark_l_watson 4y ago

I found myself using VSCode instead of Emacs when browsing a lot of files. Just recently I added treemacs to my Emacs setup so my use of VSCode is much reduced. I also took the small effort to setup GitHub Copilot to work with Emacs - for some types of work, Copilot is a real time saver for Common Lisp and Python work. I would also like his take on Pharo, which I like and many years ago released an open source NLP library for Pharo.

stjohnswarts 4y ago

It's just easier, it's not as powerful but it is "good enough" and much less steep learning curve.

hombre_fatal 4y ago

I'm also one of those people. I learned both Vim and then Emacs + evil-mode, used them for a decade, and then one day I changed computers, couldn't be bothered to set up .vim/.emacs.d and stopped using them except for Vim for topical config edits. Now I like to have a GUI that has things like a right-click menu instead of having to rely on maintaining muscle memory for everything. Of course, another part of that, I think, is becoming older. Mastering some aspect of the computer or software like Vim just isn't interesting to me like it used to be.