5 ms·

Hold up. Why would people who weren't willing to accept the taxes to maintain the street car willing to instead pay all the tax which subsidizes car infrastruct

by NoToP 4y ago

Hold up. Why would people who weren't willing to accept the taxes to maintain the street car willing to instead pay all the tax which subsidizes car infrastructure. This narrative doesn't quite add up because everything you said about why the street car existed and the commuter pattern that fed into the economics of developers applies equally well to why cars and suburb development exists. So once suburban homes were sold, why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for?

csours 4y ago
Haha. It's absolutely beautiful when someone asks the good question. Related - why are people willing to subsidize someone else's road, but not willing to pay tolls -- or -- why are people willing to subsidize someone else's road, but not someone else's bus or subway fair.
floren 4y ago
> So once suburban homes were sold, why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? This is currently playing out in older subdivisions all across America.
toast0 4y ago
> why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? A street in disrepair is still usable, a street car line in disrepair becomes unusable much faster. Only one part of the rail needs to fall apart when nobody will pay to fix it and you can't use it anymore. Potholes and washouts and lots more problems are solved by driving slowly and carefully. Especially with earlier automobiles which were more likely to run on dirt roads.
- NoToP 4y ago
  This is a plausible hypothesis, but the thing that's missing is how many times can rail be traversed before being unusable and how many times can a road be traversed by the same measure. Intuitively, I would imagine the net tonnage passed before wearing out asphalt is far lower than it is for a chunk of steel welded to the ground. Maybe the cost of maintaining rail feels worse / is a harder political sell because the full price is acutely concentrated in time, whereas each individual pothole is a mere budgetary papercut?
throw0101a 4y ago
> […] why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? Suburbs are slowing falling into a state of disrepair, or at least more and more budget being taken away form other things: * https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfQUOHlAocY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfQUOHlAocY
- rmason 4y ago
  why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? Have you ever been to Michigan? We have the 48th or 49th worst roads in America. They weren't like that when I was growing up or first got a drivers license in the sixties. Our auto insurance rates are higher and we have higher repairs than average. We have the fifth or sixth highest gas taxes in the nation. Our Governor ran on a campaign slogan that she would "fix the damn roads". Her secret plan was to raise the gas taxes by forty cents which was rejected by the legislature. It's election year so a little bit of the COVID money is going to a small increase in road repair. How are Ohio and Indiana with lower state taxes able to keep their roads so good?
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? Who says they aren't? > As small towns across the country confront rapidly deteriorating roads and shrinking maintenance budgets, more and more of them are opting for gravel roads over pavement. * https://blog.midwestind.com/counties-municipalities-gravel-roads/ https://blog.midwestind.com/counties-municipalities-gravel-r... Or it could be road maintenance is being paid for by money taken from other programs.
jt2190 4y ago
The part of the story that’s missing is that at the time these streetcar lines were built, the mass adoption of automobiles was about to start. Within a decade or two cars were everywhere, and the streetcars were no longer needed. Edit: Wikipedia says that the first line of the Los Angeles Railway opened in 1897 [1]. The Ford Model T was introduced in 1908 [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Railway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Railway [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T
dionidium 4y ago
It's because the automobile was already exploding in popularity at the time and all these suburban residents were buying cars, so they were going to have to pay for automobile infrastructure, either way. The streetcars were an extra, unnecessary cost, from this point of view.
rayiner 4y ago
Because private cars are incredibly convenient compared to street cars. Faced with significant tax increases for street cars that only go a few places, and car infrastructure that can allow people to go directly from point to point, it was a no brainer. I just loaded up my Toyota 4Runner and dumped a bunch of junk at the town dump. I didn’t plan this in advance, I didn’t have to rent a truck (how do I get there anyway?) I just did it on a whim. To compete with the convenience of point to point private transit, public transit would have to be vastly cheaper and it isn’t.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  As far as a truck; most moving companies in my area also offer junk haulage, and the rates are pretty decent for something I do rarely (like less than once a year)
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    What is a decent rate for you?
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      The city dump charges a minimum fee of $33 and that increases per ton. I junked a sectional for $50, I think?
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - JamesBarney 4y ago
        But will the city dump pick up the sectional for you?
        bobthepanda 4y ago
        To be clear: The city dump, even if you bring your own car, will charge a minimum of $33. They don’t offer curbside pickup themselves. The movers/haulers charge $50 for a sectional, and there isn’t a separate line item for the dump fee. I consider this to generally be a decent price, since then I don’t have to pay for a car.

by NoToP 4y ago

csours 4y ago

Haha. It's absolutely beautiful when someone asks the good question. Related - why are people willing to subsidize someone else's road, but not willing to pay tolls -- or -- why are people willing to subsidize someone else's road, but not someone else's bus or subway fair.

floren 4y ago

> So once suburban homes were sold, why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? This is currently playing out in older subdivisions all across America.

toast0 4y ago

> why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? A street in disrepair is still usable, a street car line in disrepair becomes unusable much faster. Only one part of the rail needs to fall apart when nobody will pay to fix it and you can't use it anymore. Potholes and washouts and lots more problems are solved by driving slowly and carefully. Especially with earlier automobiles which were more likely to run on dirt roads.

NoToP 4y ago
This is a plausible hypothesis, but the thing that's missing is how many times can rail be traversed before being unusable and how many times can a road be traversed by the same measure. Intuitively, I would imagine the net tonnage passed before wearing out asphalt is far lower than it is for a chunk of steel welded to the ground. Maybe the cost of maintaining rail feels worse / is a harder political sell because the full price is acutely concentrated in time, whereas each individual pothole is a mere budgetary papercut?

throw0101a 4y ago

> […] why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? Suburbs are slowing falling into a state of disrepair, or at least more and more budget being taken away form other things: * https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme https://www.strongtowns.org/the-growth-ponzi-scheme * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IsMeKl-Sv0 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfQUOHlAocY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfQUOHlAocY

rmason 4y ago
why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? Have you ever been to Michigan? We have the 48th or 49th worst roads in America. They weren't like that when I was growing up or first got a drivers license in the sixties. Our auto insurance rates are higher and we have higher repairs than average. We have the fifth or sixth highest gas taxes in the nation. Our Governor ran on a campaign slogan that she would "fix the damn roads". Her secret plan was to raise the gas taxes by forty cents which was rejected by the legislature. It's election year so a little bit of the COVID money is going to a small increase in road repair. How are Ohio and Indiana with lower state taxes able to keep their roads so good?
- throw0101a 4y ago
  > why didnt the roads collapse into a state of disrepair which no one was willing to pay for? Who says they aren't? > As small towns across the country confront rapidly deteriorating roads and shrinking maintenance budgets, more and more of them are opting for gravel roads over pavement. * https://blog.midwestind.com/counties-municipalities-gravel-roads/ https://blog.midwestind.com/counties-municipalities-gravel-r... Or it could be road maintenance is being paid for by money taken from other programs.

jt2190 4y ago

The part of the story that’s missing is that at the time these streetcar lines were built, the mass adoption of automobiles was about to start. Within a decade or two cars were everywhere, and the streetcars were no longer needed. Edit: Wikipedia says that the first line of the Los Angeles Railway opened in 1897 [1]. The Ford Model T was introduced in 1908 [2]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Railway https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Los_Angeles_Railway [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Model_T

dionidium 4y ago

It's because the automobile was already exploding in popularity at the time and all these suburban residents were buying cars, so they were going to have to pay for automobile infrastructure, either way. The streetcars were an extra, unnecessary cost, from this point of view.

rayiner 4y ago

Because private cars are incredibly convenient compared to street cars. Faced with significant tax increases for street cars that only go a few places, and car infrastructure that can allow people to go directly from point to point, it was a no brainer. I just loaded up my Toyota 4Runner and dumped a bunch of junk at the town dump. I didn’t plan this in advance, I didn’t have to rent a truck (how do I get there anyway?) I just did it on a whim. To compete with the convenience of point to point private transit, public transit would have to be vastly cheaper and it isn’t.

bobthepanda 4y ago
As far as a truck; most moving companies in my area also offer junk haulage, and the rates are pretty decent for something I do rarely (like less than once a year)
- ipaddr 4y ago
  What is a decent rate for you?
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    The city dump charges a minimum fee of $33 and that increases per ton. I junked a sectional for $50, I think?
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - JamesBarney 4y ago
      But will the city dump pick up the sectional for you?
      - bobthepanda 4y ago
        To be clear: The city dump, even if you bring your own car, will charge a minimum of $33. They don’t offer curbside pickup themselves. The movers/haulers charge $50 for a sectional, and there isn’t a separate line item for the dump fee. I consider this to generally be a decent price, since then I don’t have to pay for a car.