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It's amazing how many of the pathfinding behaviors are critical to the balance and function of StarCraft. From the carrier's drone leashing behavior to the way

It's amazing how many of the pathfinding behaviors are critical to the balance and function of StarCraft. From the carrier's drone leashing behavior to the way Dragoons can get stuck and how workers float over each other but can collide at critical moments, the pathfinding code and the control over it is critical to StarCraft's high skill ceiling, while StarCraft II just has deathballs. I can't wait for the promised followup

hackerlight 4y ago
Is it still deathballs at the highest levels? I haven't kept up with the Starcraft II scene.
- ungawatkt 4y ago
  Team liquids YouTube channel just dropped a bunch of SC2 TSL videos, having not watched or played since WoL it's been pretty interesting. Half the game is brand new, half is still the same. It seems like the games go faster and things are more sensitive to early mistakes/advantages than before, but there's still some good comebacks in there. It didn't feel all that death-ball, however, it feels like that's the last step in winning when you've already won. Take it with a grain of salt tho, I'm not watching particularly critically.
- littlestymaar 4y ago
  The deathball was mostly a protoss thing. Since LotV late game protoss armies now have disruptors which are pretty micro intensive and aren't as deathball prone as the (retarded) collosus… Anyway, even if SC2 has its issues and by many regards can be considered inferior to broodwar from an esport perspective, saying “sc2 is just death ball” only reveals the unculture of the speaker.
- otherme123 4y ago
  It was some years ago, but the current SC2 has a wide variability. E.g. the TSL8 final (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0cWokKNBUQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0cWokKNBUQ) played this year was the opposite of deathballs, with rushed games decided by small errors. At the top level players should keep an eye on the other player at all times, because a lot of strategies has a very specific response or you die.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    Does anyone here know the conclusion to Alpha Star? What was its winrate against actual pros that it encountered on the ladder after the APM abuse was fixed following the exhibition match with TLO? Was it ever able to beat Serral?
    - otherme123 4y ago
      AFAIK, it beat Serral, but he said the setup wasn't optimal (not his keyboard nor his mouse). The games are in the Artosis channel (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nbiVbd_CEIA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nbiVbd_CEIA), and the comments are beginner friendly.
    - icegreentea2 4y ago
      They didn't run Alphastar on ladder long enough to really converge on a MMR (they also ran a bunch of different accounts in parallel and combined their results), but they projected ~6.3k Protoss, ~6k Terran and ~5.8k Zerg. With those MMR, you'd... probably not expect it to be beat Serral (7.5k MMR lmao...)
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
- oblak 4y ago
  Hasn't been the case for a decade in GSL. I have been following the scene since the first public beta. I actually had the chance to play a very early alpha back in 2007 at gamescom (games convention back then). Most of the units didn't even have sounds and the ones that did, used the SC1/BW files.
- icegreentea2 4y ago
  Depends what you mean by deathballs. SC2 generally does not encourage significantly splitting up your main army in mid-late game. So ya, main armies are still normally moving around as a single blob/body. I think every race still has enough tools to punish a-move, stacked/bunched up ground armies (lurker, baneling, widow mines, tank/liberator, psistorm, disruptor) that even if a ground army moves as a clump, there's significant pressure to quickly micro and split on contact. There was a recent-ish period where there was a lot of dissatisfaction about late-game protoss air basically being a death ball, especially against zerg. I think that has somewhat dissipated - they released a patch that made disincentivized getting to that state, but I suspect that dealing with late-game protoss air is still annoying as heck for zerg.
pubby 4y ago
Followups: https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-down-in-flames https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-... https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/the-starcraft-path-finding-hack https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/the-starcraft-path-finding-...
jwilber 4y ago
Calling StarCraft II “just deathballs” is a complete misrepresentation and utterly false. Maybe Protoss in HotS/WoL (ie 5-11 years ago) but not anything now. Also drones are the Zerg’s worker unit, the things that fly out of carriers are called “interceptors” - but I agree pathing is very important in broodwar.
- myownpetard 4y ago
  A current SC2 pro game vs a pro game from WoL might as well be completely different games. The skill and meta development over that time is immense. It's like watching the NBA in the 1960's vs. today.
  - jackblemming 4y ago
    By this analogy is the skill level in sc1 like watching NBA in 2080?
    - littlestymaar 4y ago
      Yes, but with 90+ years old Le Bron and Steph Curry still dominating because all the young players decided to play hokey instead of basketball.

hackerlight 4y ago

Is it still deathballs at the highest levels? I haven't kept up with the Starcraft II scene.

ungawatkt 4y ago
Team liquids YouTube channel just dropped a bunch of SC2 TSL videos, having not watched or played since WoL it's been pretty interesting. Half the game is brand new, half is still the same. It seems like the games go faster and things are more sensitive to early mistakes/advantages than before, but there's still some good comebacks in there. It didn't feel all that death-ball, however, it feels like that's the last step in winning when you've already won. Take it with a grain of salt tho, I'm not watching particularly critically.
littlestymaar 4y ago
The deathball was mostly a protoss thing. Since LotV late game protoss armies now have disruptors which are pretty micro intensive and aren't as deathball prone as the (retarded) collosus… Anyway, even if SC2 has its issues and by many regards can be considered inferior to broodwar from an esport perspective, saying “sc2 is just death ball” only reveals the unculture of the speaker.
otherme123 4y ago
It was some years ago, but the current SC2 has a wide variability. E.g. the TSL8 final (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0cWokKNBUQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k0cWokKNBUQ) played this year was the opposite of deathballs, with rushed games decided by small errors. At the top level players should keep an eye on the other player at all times, because a lot of strategies has a very specific response or you die.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  Does anyone here know the conclusion to Alpha Star? What was its winrate against actual pros that it encountered on the ladder after the APM abuse was fixed following the exhibition match with TLO? Was it ever able to beat Serral?
  - otherme123 4y ago
    AFAIK, it beat Serral, but he said the setup wasn't optimal (not his keyboard nor his mouse). The games are in the Artosis channel (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nbiVbd_CEIA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nbiVbd_CEIA), and the comments are beginner friendly.
  - icegreentea2 4y ago
    They didn't run Alphastar on ladder long enough to really converge on a MMR (they also ran a bunch of different accounts in parallel and combined their results), but they projected ~6.3k Protoss, ~6k Terran and ~5.8k Zerg. With those MMR, you'd... probably not expect it to be beat Serral (7.5k MMR lmao...)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
oblak 4y ago
Hasn't been the case for a decade in GSL. I have been following the scene since the first public beta. I actually had the chance to play a very early alpha back in 2007 at gamescom (games convention back then). Most of the units didn't even have sounds and the ones that did, used the SC1/BW files.
icegreentea2 4y ago
Depends what you mean by deathballs. SC2 generally does not encourage significantly splitting up your main army in mid-late game. So ya, main armies are still normally moving around as a single blob/body. I think every race still has enough tools to punish a-move, stacked/bunched up ground armies (lurker, baneling, widow mines, tank/liberator, psistorm, disruptor) that even if a ground army moves as a clump, there's significant pressure to quickly micro and split on contact. There was a recent-ish period where there was a lot of dissatisfaction about late-game protoss air basically being a death ball, especially against zerg. I think that has somewhat dissipated - they released a patch that made disincentivized getting to that state, but I suspect that dealing with late-game protoss air is still annoying as heck for zerg.

pubby 4y ago

Followups: https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-down-in-flames https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/starcraft-orcs-in-space-go-... https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/the-starcraft-path-finding-hack https://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/the-starcraft-path-finding-...

jwilber 4y ago

Calling StarCraft II “just deathballs” is a complete misrepresentation and utterly false. Maybe Protoss in HotS/WoL (ie 5-11 years ago) but not anything now. Also drones are the Zerg’s worker unit, the things that fly out of carriers are called “interceptors” - but I agree pathing is very important in broodwar.

myownpetard 4y ago
A current SC2 pro game vs a pro game from WoL might as well be completely different games. The skill and meta development over that time is immense. It's like watching the NBA in the 1960's vs. today.
- jackblemming 4y ago
  By this analogy is the skill level in sc1 like watching NBA in 2080?
  - littlestymaar 4y ago
    Yes, but with 90+ years old Le Bron and Steph Curry still dominating because all the young players decided to play hokey instead of basketball.