5 ms·

I don't see many libertarians on Hacker News.

by Kiro 4y ago

xwdv 4y ago
What do you see
- revscat 4y ago
  My take on the Platonic ideal HN user: Tech-savvy NPR liberals: deeply capitalist, socially liberal, who consider expressions of emotion profoundly offensive. This is particularly true of anger, with empathy being a close second. Humor is almost-but-not-quite taboo. When politics is discussed, solutions outside of boycotts or elections are eschewed. Partisans are not acknowledged to exist, nor are bad-faith actors: if someone says something, you must pretend to believe they are acting in good faith, and that debate is always worth pursuing. Racism and bigotry simply do not exist. Market forces will solve climate crises. The use of force will not be considered or allowed to be discussed.
  - jrm4 4y ago
    Can confirm.* *black guy who occasionally makes it a topic here
  - junofan 4y ago
    Startup News on the other hand…
  - tragictrash 4y ago
    I think your comment reflects more on yourself than anything else.
  - noSyncCloud 4y ago
    Agreed with most of your points, except they're actually "tech-savvy OAN 'independents'".
  - xwdv 4y ago
    Racism and bigotry is alive and well here in Hackernews, it's just disguised, and perhaps not directed toward the usual races you'd expect.
- rascul 4y ago
  I see a lot of comments advocating for more regulation, more policies, more government control, less individual freedom. Many that argue the other way are down voted.
  - bigyikes 4y ago
    Do you disagree with those comments? I ask because Dang often links to a collection of threads where people make this type claim[1]. If we’re to believe him, the bias you’re perceiving may not actually exist, and may actually be a reflection of your own personal biases. Not sure whether you relate to that, but I definitely could. Since learning of this, I actually view Hacker News as roughly politically neutral. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25922311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25922311
    - rascul 4y ago
      It's just what I (remember) seeing. My own views and biases may certainly have an effect on that. Note that the comments Dang linked to are making claims that HN is this or HN is that. I only claim that I saw things. It's a difference, but possibly a small difference, I guess.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Times have changed greatly since the Great Recession. Individuals in general are more materially dispossessed than they were in the end of history '90s. Even well-paid hackers in San Francisco or Seattle can see poverty all around them. Meanwhile, corporate wealth and power have risen to the stuff of cyberpunk fantasies. Less luxury, nowadays, to be an absolutist individualist. Not to mention, libertarianism as a American political ideology has fallen by the wayside with the failure of the Ron Paul campaigns in 2008 and 2012.
  - layer8 4y ago
    Maybe libertarians just downvote less? I mean, nominally they should?
    - 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
bediger4000 4y ago
I see a lot of HN user IDs that argue libertarian ideas, and take libertarian talking points for granted.
- sli 4y ago
  Being pretty far-left (by American standards, anyway), I feel extremely out of place on this website for reasons that I think are pretty benign in the grand scheme of things. I support programmers unionizing, but the overall vibe of this website is that making a little more money individually is more important. Unions just aren't that radical, though. This site skews towards high earners, but the rest of us programming grunts in the trenches could use the solidarity.
  - iopq 4y ago
    Libertarians have no problem with privately run organizations, like unions. Anyone has the right to associate with anyone they want. You just can't force someone to be in your union to get a job
    - bet3lgeuse 4y ago
      Thank you. I wish more of the real libertarians would stand up like this. Unions are indeed a positive force in the world to counteract private power. Freedom to assemble is a right that's nearly extinct. It's government that is responsible for union busting, not libertarians. There are so many charlatans and corporate barons who rise to some brief level of recognition with the libertarian label that I felt forced to stop using the term to describe myself about 10 years ago. Ideology is driven by Internet defined politburo which is why it's difficult to spot libertarian themes in public online discourse. As fascist undertones are evergreen, libertarian principles remain difficult to defend and vulnerable to ad-hominem attack. But I digress.
anothernewdude 4y ago
Hard to be that naive about economics and how large corporations would immediately capture regulation in a "libertarian paradise" these days.
- willnonya 4y ago
  I dunno, people still find it pretty easy to be naive about how great and free a socialist paradise would be.
  - anothernewdude 4y ago
    I'm in one, and it is pretty great.
robswc 4y ago
I'd probably consider most closely aligning with libertarian-ism but honestly being part of any "ism" is just a drag. I don't see why you can't favor parts of different ideologies while rejecting others. A funny example... I find socialists very good at identifying societal problems and even identifying their core causes... the only problem is I can't say I find a lot of the proposed solutions all that great. One of my favorite examples of an intention != consequence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_financial_transaction_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_financial_transaction_... TL;DR, Awhile back, Sweden decided to tax financial trades. It was a "tiny" tax of just 1%. This tax reduced revenues of various other taxes and completely destroyed their markets which haven't recovered, even to this day. Hundreds of millions evaporated in the span of years and potentially billions over the decades... not to mention the loss of jobs and opportunities for the country as a whole... That said, I'm glad HN is mostly apolitical... at least relative to other sites I visit, lol.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  I'd say you'd probably fit into the archetypal libertarianish techie mould - "socially liberal, economically conservative", valuing pragmatism above all with a bias towards technological/engineered solutions, and perhaps generally apolitical and disliking of labels. Not to label you specifically, but I think that sort of soft-libertarian is a common engineering archetype, both on HN and other tech communities all the way back to the BBS era. I think it's still a pretty common political formulation to have around here, but with all of the messes and crises of the past couple of decades, I see on HN people might be more receptive to something to rein in large corporations, whether it be government or even organized worker power. Was the Swedish financial trade tax a Tobin tax?
  - robswc 4y ago
    >Was the Swedish financial trade tax a Tobin tax? Mmmm... I'd say it could have been, yes. IIRC the main purpose was to raise revenue though (https://www.bis.org/publ/confp01s.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/confp01s.pdf), while a Tobin is mainly aimed at curbing speculation. They have very similar effects though. >I'd say you'd probably fit into the archetypal libertarianish techie mould For sure. I see no sense in denying it. >I see on HN people might be more receptive to something to rein in large corporations I can also agree with this. I try not to absorb myself in political philosophy but more or less, that's why I can't say I would ever be 100% one thing or the other (yea, tired trope but see no reason it isn't valid) . Ask anyone that knows me, I _hate_ TikTok and a lot of actions taken by big corporations as of late.

I don't see many libertarians on Hacker News.

by Kiro 4y ago

I don't see many libertarians on Hacker News.

xwdv 4y ago

What do you see

revscat 4y ago
My take on the Platonic ideal HN user: Tech-savvy NPR liberals: deeply capitalist, socially liberal, who consider expressions of emotion profoundly offensive. This is particularly true of anger, with empathy being a close second. Humor is almost-but-not-quite taboo. When politics is discussed, solutions outside of boycotts or elections are eschewed. Partisans are not acknowledged to exist, nor are bad-faith actors: if someone says something, you must pretend to believe they are acting in good faith, and that debate is always worth pursuing. Racism and bigotry simply do not exist. Market forces will solve climate crises. The use of force will not be considered or allowed to be discussed.
- jrm4 4y ago
  Can confirm.* *black guy who occasionally makes it a topic here
- junofan 4y ago
  Startup News on the other hand…
- tragictrash 4y ago
  I think your comment reflects more on yourself than anything else.
- noSyncCloud 4y ago
  Agreed with most of your points, except they're actually "tech-savvy OAN 'independents'".
- xwdv 4y ago
  Racism and bigotry is alive and well here in Hackernews, it's just disguised, and perhaps not directed toward the usual races you'd expect.
rascul 4y ago
I see a lot of comments advocating for more regulation, more policies, more government control, less individual freedom. Many that argue the other way are down voted.
- bigyikes 4y ago
  Do you disagree with those comments? I ask because Dang often links to a collection of threads where people make this type claim[1]. If we’re to believe him, the bias you’re perceiving may not actually exist, and may actually be a reflection of your own personal biases. Not sure whether you relate to that, but I definitely could. Since learning of this, I actually view Hacker News as roughly politically neutral. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25922311 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25922311
  - rascul 4y ago
    It's just what I (remember) seeing. My own views and biases may certainly have an effect on that. Note that the comments Dang linked to are making claims that HN is this or HN is that. I only claim that I saw things. It's a difference, but possibly a small difference, I guess.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Times have changed greatly since the Great Recession. Individuals in general are more materially dispossessed than they were in the end of history '90s. Even well-paid hackers in San Francisco or Seattle can see poverty all around them. Meanwhile, corporate wealth and power have risen to the stuff of cyberpunk fantasies. Less luxury, nowadays, to be an absolutist individualist. Not to mention, libertarianism as a American political ideology has fallen by the wayside with the failure of the Ron Paul campaigns in 2008 and 2012.
- layer8 4y ago
  Maybe libertarians just downvote less? I mean, nominally they should?
  - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

bediger4000 4y ago

I see a lot of HN user IDs that argue libertarian ideas, and take libertarian talking points for granted.

sli 4y ago
Being pretty far-left (by American standards, anyway), I feel extremely out of place on this website for reasons that I think are pretty benign in the grand scheme of things. I support programmers unionizing, but the overall vibe of this website is that making a little more money individually is more important. Unions just aren't that radical, though. This site skews towards high earners, but the rest of us programming grunts in the trenches could use the solidarity.
- iopq 4y ago
  Libertarians have no problem with privately run organizations, like unions. Anyone has the right to associate with anyone they want. You just can't force someone to be in your union to get a job
  - bet3lgeuse 4y ago
    Thank you. I wish more of the real libertarians would stand up like this. Unions are indeed a positive force in the world to counteract private power. Freedom to assemble is a right that's nearly extinct. It's government that is responsible for union busting, not libertarians. There are so many charlatans and corporate barons who rise to some brief level of recognition with the libertarian label that I felt forced to stop using the term to describe myself about 10 years ago. Ideology is driven by Internet defined politburo which is why it's difficult to spot libertarian themes in public online discourse. As fascist undertones are evergreen, libertarian principles remain difficult to defend and vulnerable to ad-hominem attack. But I digress.

anothernewdude 4y ago

Hard to be that naive about economics and how large corporations would immediately capture regulation in a "libertarian paradise" these days.

willnonya 4y ago
I dunno, people still find it pretty easy to be naive about how great and free a socialist paradise would be.
- anothernewdude 4y ago
  I'm in one, and it is pretty great.

robswc 4y ago

I'd probably consider most closely aligning with libertarian-ism but honestly being part of any "ism" is just a drag. I don't see why you can't favor parts of different ideologies while rejecting others. A funny example... I find socialists very good at identifying societal problems and even identifying their core causes... the only problem is I can't say I find a lot of the proposed solutions all that great. One of my favorite examples of an intention != consequence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_financial_transaction_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_financial_transaction_... TL;DR, Awhile back, Sweden decided to tax financial trades. It was a "tiny" tax of just 1%. This tax reduced revenues of various other taxes and completely destroyed their markets which haven't recovered, even to this day. Hundreds of millions evaporated in the span of years and potentially billions over the decades... not to mention the loss of jobs and opportunities for the country as a whole... That said, I'm glad HN is mostly apolitical... at least relative to other sites I visit, lol.

Apocryphon 4y ago
I'd say you'd probably fit into the archetypal libertarianish techie mould - "socially liberal, economically conservative", valuing pragmatism above all with a bias towards technological/engineered solutions, and perhaps generally apolitical and disliking of labels. Not to label you specifically, but I think that sort of soft-libertarian is a common engineering archetype, both on HN and other tech communities all the way back to the BBS era. I think it's still a pretty common political formulation to have around here, but with all of the messes and crises of the past couple of decades, I see on HN people might be more receptive to something to rein in large corporations, whether it be government or even organized worker power. Was the Swedish financial trade tax a Tobin tax?
- robswc 4y ago
  >Was the Swedish financial trade tax a Tobin tax? Mmmm... I'd say it could have been, yes. IIRC the main purpose was to raise revenue though (https://www.bis.org/publ/confp01s.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/confp01s.pdf), while a Tobin is mainly aimed at curbing speculation. They have very similar effects though. >I'd say you'd probably fit into the archetypal libertarianish techie mould For sure. I see no sense in denying it. >I see on HN people might be more receptive to something to rein in large corporations I can also agree with this. I try not to absorb myself in political philosophy but more or less, that's why I can't say I would ever be 100% one thing or the other (yea, tired trope but see no reason it isn't valid) . Ask anyone that knows me, I _hate_ TikTok and a lot of actions taken by big corporations as of late.