7 ms·

You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you

by danans 4y ago

You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. This is in case you decide not to take the train, or forgot something at home. I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trains and stations as shelters by the unhoused. But others have pointed out that it is to prevent fare hacking, also.

Lammy 4y ago
> allow you to exit via the emergency doors If you had to be allowed to exit via emergency doors then they wouldn't be very good emergency doors. They're not going to chase after you :) "Jump the turnstile, never pay the toll / Doo-wah diddy and bust in with the pre-roll"
- wolfgang42 4y ago
  You can still physically do it even if you’re not allowed to, yes. (There’s at least one other situation where you might be authorized to use the emergency gates sans emergency: a few of the stations have the elevators to the platform outside the paid area for some bizarre reason, so when transiting the station by elevator you have to go through the fare gates and then immediately leave via the emergency exit to get to the train!)
rahimnathwani 4y ago
The system will have a record of you entering at one station, but no record of an exit. Will that result in a charge or other problem? (On the London Underground, it would result in a charge, as the system is designed to assume you exited somewhere but somehow managed to leave without tapping out.)
- wsinks 4y ago
  No - any time you have a problem you talk with a BART agent at the gate and they sort it out for you. Are they not present sometimes? Yes. Are they slow / overrun by people? Sometimes. But that has little to do with the fare.
- CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
  You’re correct. When you try to enter next the turnstile will error out with “see agent”. That’s when they fix your card and peel the sticker off. Which highlights the total ridiculousness: they’re asking riders to see an agent twice!
  - rahimnathwani 4y ago
    > they’re asking riders to see an agent twice Even worse: they're asking NON-riders to see an agent twice
    - underwater 4y ago
      Ergo, affected passengers need to see infinite number of agents for each trip taken.
    - danans 4y ago
      > Even worse: they're asking NON-riders to see an agent twice Presumably on the second entry you will be riding the train.
      - rahimnathwani 4y ago
        Maybe, but the number of times you need to see an agent is still 2x the number of failed ride attempts.
- Glant 4y ago
  Looks like this comment from another chain is your answer https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32442280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32442280
- tialaramex 4y ago
  One thing that surprised early Oyster users on LU was that the new system knew about routes. If you live in Zone 3 and you travel to a Zone 3 station on the far side of London, you could buy a weekly paper ticket that's not valid in Zone 1, and it'd let you in (in Zone 3 it's valid) and out (in Zone 3 again, it's valid) despite your train passing straight through Zone 1. However after switching to Oyster weekly the computer would look at these journeys and go, er - no, the sane routes use Zone 1 so a ticket needs Zone 1 validity... On day one there was no noticeable symptom. But if your Oyster only had a season ticket for outer Zones and your route was via Zone 1 the system had surcharged you, and when you tried to travel the next day the Oyster has negative balance, you can't use it until you pay off the excess. This infuriated some travellers, when in reality they had actually been cheating (presumably in most cases without realising) previously. Today Oyster can actually track if you insist on taking the long route, you tap pink validators at key interchanges you'd need to pass through to do your slower and less central route avoiding Zone 1, and the system will go OK, fair enough, you really did go the long way so keep your money. I expect very few people do this.
  - rahimnathwani 4y ago
    > presumably in most cases without realising I doubt this. Even as a child I knew that a travelcard must be valid for all the zones you travel through. Of course, if challenged, someone knowingly cheating would claim they didn't realise. > you tap pink validators at key interchanges > you'd need to pass through to do your slower > and less central route avoiding Zone 1" Wow! I had no idea this was a thing. I moved away from London in 2010, and now I'm curious to know whether this was implemented before or after I left.
    - Symbiote 4y ago
      It was introduced on 6 September 2009: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2009/september/introduction-of-pink-oyster-route-validators-at-selected-stations https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2009/septem... I used this frequently at some point, but it is now so long ago I can't remember where. Especially with many London Overground routes, it's not necessarily slower.
- tialaramex 4y ago
  In this particular context by the way (enter and exit same station, assume you just tapped in and out as you would normally) LU may actually charge "Same station fare" and the rules are pretty esoteric. https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-4 https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets... [Edited to add: Stupid web site doesn't have working fragment markers, click "Same Station Exits" near the top... ] In practice, as it explains elsewhere on the site, these charges are mostly to discourage attempted fare evasion, and if you're a regular user who just does this once in a while it'll delete the journeys after it decides this isn't suspicious after all, otherwise you need to talk to a human if you really didn't travel anywhere.
  - rahimnathwani 4y ago
    The 'same station exits' section of that page is fascinating. The great thing is that most people will never need to worry about this, so they discourage fare evasion without inconveniencing honest passengers. I wonder: if there were better enforcement of fares in San Francisco, would public transport be better? Right now, I almost never use public transport in SF because ~100% of my journeys would take 2x to 3x as long as they do by car. This is very sad for me, having previously lived in two cities with excellent public transport (London and Beijing).
- danans 4y ago
  When you leave without going through the turnstile your card is locked and you can't re-enter via the turnstiles. That's what the sticker is for: it tells the station agent that you should be able to re-enter via the emergency exit.
axit 4y ago
Usually works but sometimes there's no one at the kiosk. > I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trains and stations as shelters by the unhoused. Time limits around entry exit could be useful here, where you can exit within 10 minutes of entry there is no charge. Reason for exiting at the same station for me is the train is delayed by 30 minutes and I forgot to check the next train before entering the station. More stories on excursion fare: https://twitter.com/graue/status/1554998671384756229 https://twitter.com/graue/status/1554998671384756229
- CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
  Neat link. From BART’s tweet response: > You can request an excursion fare refund with Clipper. This is true and wasn’t mentioned in the article, but should have been.
- etrautmann 4y ago
  exactly - it seems braindead obvious to me that there should be a 5-minute window for exiting without charge. Not implementing such an obvious and trivial feature can only be interpreted as deliberately taking money without delivering value for riders because....it's possible?
  - jonas21 4y ago
    Until recently, BART used magstripe tickets where all information was stored on the ticket itself. It might not have been possible to implement a time window with that. That doesn't explain why they didn't add this when migrating to the Clipper card, but I feel like "nobody thought to change it" or "we wanted to reduce risk by not introducing changes while migrating" seem like more likely explanations than malice.
    - magila 4y ago
      I wouldn't call it malice. It's simply a rational decision. BART makes more money with the fee than without, so absent political pressure to discontinue it why would they? Also, Clipper cards have been around many years. They aren't a recent addition to BART.
paulgb 4y ago
> You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. What if you use the phone app and don't have a physical card with you?
- CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
  The sticker is just a plain sticker. I would assume they'd let you put it on an alternate surface..
  - clintonb 4y ago
    The sticker doesn’t matter. The phone maintains an open “transaction until you swipe it at your destination. It’s not clear what happens if you leave the the station without swiping, and return a few hours/days later. I suspect they still charge you for the excursion fare, or a higher amount.
adrianmonk 4y ago
Also, it's possible (if unusual) to get value out of traveling within the BART system. For example, suppose you have a nice camera you want to sell to a friend. They live in Millbrae and commute to SF by BART. You live in north San Jose. So you agree to meet them on their way home from work, at 6pm right outside the Powell Street station. That's $16.80 for your Berryessa to Powell Street round trip. But what if you met inside the station instead? For your purposes, that's fine too. You can hand them the camera in either place. Should that trip be free because you enter and leave the BART system at Berryessa? I would say no, because getting to SF was valuable to you, plus you used a seat on two BART trains.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- googlryas 4y ago
  They could just let you exit normally and not pay any fare if you entered the station less than 8 minutes ago, or whatever would be an amount of time that you couldn't realistically ride somewhere, enjoy another station, and then ride back. Though I guess people would just tap in, tap out immediately but don't exit the turnstiles, then just get on a train and exit through the emergency exit at whatever station you want for free.
  - Psyonic 4y ago
    "Though I guess people would just tap in, tap out immediately but don't exit the turnstiles, then just get on a train and exit through the emergency exit at whatever station you want for free." Sure, or just jump the turnstiles and exist through the emergency exit on the other end, which I already see people do frequently.
    - googlryas 4y ago
      Sure, but jumping the turnstiles is clearly ipso facto breaking the rules. Re-tapping where you entered but not exiting immediately could be explained away. I bet far more people would cheat if they only had to tap to exit and not exit, versus jumping turnstiles.
Psyonic 4y ago
Assuming anyone is there, sure. I've changed my mind about BART late at night (next train was delay 30m, going to take an Uber instead) and had no one there to talk to.
digianarchist 4y ago
TTC stations in Toronto will not allow you to enter using Presto at the same station you have already entered. I assume this is to prevent "pass backs" but it also affects those that have entered on the wrong side of certain stations. The solution in absence of an attendant. Jump the barriers.
- aix1 4y ago
  What's a "pass back"? I'm guessing some form of fare dodging, but could you explain the mechanics?
  - duskwuff 4y ago
    I imagine it refers to entering the station using a ticket, then passing that ticket to someone leaving the station. (And, presumably, relying on someone else doing the same thing at the other end?)
    - digianarchist 4y ago
      Correct except fares are not routinely checked on the TTC so once you've entered you shouldn't experience any issues.

by danans 4y ago

Lammy 4y ago

> allow you to exit via the emergency doors If you had to be allowed to exit via emergency doors then they wouldn't be very good emergency doors. They're not going to chase after you :) "Jump the turnstile, never pay the toll / Doo-wah diddy and bust in with the pre-roll"

wolfgang42 4y ago
You can still physically do it even if you’re not allowed to, yes. (There’s at least one other situation where you might be authorized to use the emergency gates sans emergency: a few of the stations have the elevators to the platform outside the paid area for some bizarre reason, so when transiting the station by elevator you have to go through the fare gates and then immediately leave via the emergency exit to get to the train!)

rahimnathwani 4y ago

The system will have a record of you entering at one station, but no record of an exit. Will that result in a charge or other problem? (On the London Underground, it would result in a charge, as the system is designed to assume you exited somewhere but somehow managed to leave without tapping out.)

wsinks 4y ago
No - any time you have a problem you talk with a BART agent at the gate and they sort it out for you. Are they not present sometimes? Yes. Are they slow / overrun by people? Sometimes. But that has little to do with the fare.
CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
You’re correct. When you try to enter next the turnstile will error out with “see agent”. That’s when they fix your card and peel the sticker off. Which highlights the total ridiculousness: they’re asking riders to see an agent twice!
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  > they’re asking riders to see an agent twice Even worse: they're asking NON-riders to see an agent twice
  - underwater 4y ago
    Ergo, affected passengers need to see infinite number of agents for each trip taken.
  - danans 4y ago
    > Even worse: they're asking NON-riders to see an agent twice Presumably on the second entry you will be riding the train.
    - rahimnathwani 4y ago
      Maybe, but the number of times you need to see an agent is still 2x the number of failed ride attempts.
Glant 4y ago
Looks like this comment from another chain is your answer https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32442280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32442280
tialaramex 4y ago
One thing that surprised early Oyster users on LU was that the new system knew about routes. If you live in Zone 3 and you travel to a Zone 3 station on the far side of London, you could buy a weekly paper ticket that's not valid in Zone 1, and it'd let you in (in Zone 3 it's valid) and out (in Zone 3 again, it's valid) despite your train passing straight through Zone 1. However after switching to Oyster weekly the computer would look at these journeys and go, er - no, the sane routes use Zone 1 so a ticket needs Zone 1 validity... On day one there was no noticeable symptom. But if your Oyster only had a season ticket for outer Zones and your route was via Zone 1 the system had surcharged you, and when you tried to travel the next day the Oyster has negative balance, you can't use it until you pay off the excess. This infuriated some travellers, when in reality they had actually been cheating (presumably in most cases without realising) previously. Today Oyster can actually track if you insist on taking the long route, you tap pink validators at key interchanges you'd need to pass through to do your slower and less central route avoiding Zone 1, and the system will go OK, fair enough, you really did go the long way so keep your money. I expect very few people do this.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  > presumably in most cases without realising I doubt this. Even as a child I knew that a travelcard must be valid for all the zones you travel through. Of course, if challenged, someone knowingly cheating would claim they didn't realise. > you tap pink validators at key interchanges > you'd need to pass through to do your slower > and less central route avoiding Zone 1" Wow! I had no idea this was a thing. I moved away from London in 2010, and now I'm curious to know whether this was implemented before or after I left.
  - Symbiote 4y ago
    It was introduced on 6 September 2009: https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2009/september/introduction-of-pink-oyster-route-validators-at-selected-stations https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2009/septem... I used this frequently at some point, but it is now so long ago I can't remember where. Especially with many London Overground routes, it's not necessarily slower.
tialaramex 4y ago
In this particular context by the way (enter and exit same station, assume you just tapped in and out as you would normally) LU may actually charge "Same station fare" and the rules are pretty esoteric. https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets-and-oyster/pay-as-you-go/touching-in-and-out#on-this-page-4 https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/how-to-pay-and-where-to-buy-tickets... [Edited to add: Stupid web site doesn't have working fragment markers, click "Same Station Exits" near the top... ] In practice, as it explains elsewhere on the site, these charges are mostly to discourage attempted fare evasion, and if you're a regular user who just does this once in a while it'll delete the journeys after it decides this isn't suspicious after all, otherwise you need to talk to a human if you really didn't travel anywhere.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  The 'same station exits' section of that page is fascinating. The great thing is that most people will never need to worry about this, so they discourage fare evasion without inconveniencing honest passengers. I wonder: if there were better enforcement of fares in San Francisco, would public transport be better? Right now, I almost never use public transport in SF because ~100% of my journeys would take 2x to 3x as long as they do by car. This is very sad for me, having previously lived in two cities with excellent public transport (London and Beijing).
danans 4y ago
When you leave without going through the turnstile your card is locked and you can't re-enter via the turnstiles. That's what the sticker is for: it tells the station agent that you should be able to re-enter via the emergency exit.

axit 4y ago

Usually works but sometimes there's no one at the kiosk. > I suspect the excursion fare today is trying to disincentivize the use of the trains and stations as shelters by the unhoused. Time limits around entry exit could be useful here, where you can exit within 10 minutes of entry there is no charge. Reason for exiting at the same station for me is the train is delayed by 30 minutes and I forgot to check the next train before entering the station. More stories on excursion fare: https://twitter.com/graue/status/1554998671384756229 https://twitter.com/graue/status/1554998671384756229

CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
Neat link. From BART’s tweet response: > You can request an excursion fare refund with Clipper. This is true and wasn’t mentioned in the article, but should have been.
etrautmann 4y ago
exactly - it seems braindead obvious to me that there should be a 5-minute window for exiting without charge. Not implementing such an obvious and trivial feature can only be interpreted as deliberately taking money without delivering value for riders because....it's possible?
- jonas21 4y ago
  Until recently, BART used magstripe tickets where all information was stored on the ticket itself. It might not have been possible to implement a time window with that. That doesn't explain why they didn't add this when migrating to the Clipper card, but I feel like "nobody thought to change it" or "we wanted to reduce risk by not introducing changes while migrating" seem like more likely explanations than malice.
  - magila 4y ago
    I wouldn't call it malice. It's simply a rational decision. BART makes more money with the fee than without, so absent political pressure to discontinue it why would they? Also, Clipper cards have been around many years. They aren't a recent addition to BART.

paulgb 4y ago

> You can go to the kiosk at any BART station and the station attendant will put a sticker on your card to indicate that you are leaving via the same station you entered and allow you to exit via the emergency doors, therefore not incurring the excursion fare. What if you use the phone app and don't have a physical card with you?

CoffeeOnWrite 4y ago
The sticker is just a plain sticker. I would assume they'd let you put it on an alternate surface..
- clintonb 4y ago
  The sticker doesn’t matter. The phone maintains an open “transaction until you swipe it at your destination. It’s not clear what happens if you leave the the station without swiping, and return a few hours/days later. I suspect they still charge you for the excursion fare, or a higher amount.

adrianmonk 4y ago

Also, it's possible (if unusual) to get value out of traveling within the BART system. For example, suppose you have a nice camera you want to sell to a friend. They live in Millbrae and commute to SF by BART. You live in north San Jose. So you agree to meet them on their way home from work, at 6pm right outside the Powell Street station. That's $16.80 for your Berryessa to Powell Street round trip. But what if you met inside the station instead? For your purposes, that's fine too. You can hand them the camera in either place. Should that trip be free because you enter and leave the BART system at Berryessa? I would say no, because getting to SF was valuable to you, plus you used a seat on two BART trains.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
googlryas 4y ago
They could just let you exit normally and not pay any fare if you entered the station less than 8 minutes ago, or whatever would be an amount of time that you couldn't realistically ride somewhere, enjoy another station, and then ride back. Though I guess people would just tap in, tap out immediately but don't exit the turnstiles, then just get on a train and exit through the emergency exit at whatever station you want for free.
- Psyonic 4y ago
  "Though I guess people would just tap in, tap out immediately but don't exit the turnstiles, then just get on a train and exit through the emergency exit at whatever station you want for free." Sure, or just jump the turnstiles and exist through the emergency exit on the other end, which I already see people do frequently.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    Sure, but jumping the turnstiles is clearly ipso facto breaking the rules. Re-tapping where you entered but not exiting immediately could be explained away. I bet far more people would cheat if they only had to tap to exit and not exit, versus jumping turnstiles.

Psyonic 4y ago

Assuming anyone is there, sure. I've changed my mind about BART late at night (next train was delay 30m, going to take an Uber instead) and had no one there to talk to.

digianarchist 4y ago

TTC stations in Toronto will not allow you to enter using Presto at the same station you have already entered. I assume this is to prevent "pass backs" but it also affects those that have entered on the wrong side of certain stations. The solution in absence of an attendant. Jump the barriers.

aix1 4y ago
What's a "pass back"? I'm guessing some form of fare dodging, but could you explain the mechanics?
- duskwuff 4y ago
  I imagine it refers to entering the station using a ticket, then passing that ticket to someone leaving the station. (And, presumably, relying on someone else doing the same thing at the other end?)
  - digianarchist 4y ago
    Correct except fares are not routinely checked on the TTC so once you've entered you shouldn't experience any issues.