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I thought this was actually not that great of a write up, although it's from the perspective of someone who has never used it. I've used it off on and on for a

I thought this was actually not that great of a write up, although it's from the perspective of someone who has never used it. I've used it off on and on for a few years now, but never as my main OS. The install process the author describes (in virtualbox) didn't sound right. When I install it, I don't need to reboot then use sysinst...I use sysinst during the install process to install pkgin, add a user, config my network etc, etc; then when I reboot and login I can config doas/sudo to my liking and start installing binary packages via pkgin. It's all pretty straightforward in my opinion. Later on, the author compares installing net to arch and gentoo. I find NetBSD much easier to install both of those. Something else that irked me was describing NetBSD as "not like just another linux distro." well, of course not, it's a completely independent OS! I did agree about the documentation, and about looking for help online. In my first experience using Net, googling isn't really useful for more complex problems. You can find help on the mailing lists, unitedbsd.com, and reddit, but a new user wouldn't know that. Free and Open have better documentation, and linux has countless online resources. But net's problem re: documentation is just a question of manpower.

lproven 4y ago
[Author and poster of the article here] > I thought this was actually not that great of a write up I am sorry to hear that. :-( If you have the time and the inclination, I'd like to learn more about why, so that I can perhaps improve future articles. > although it's from the perspective of someone who has never used it. Yes, that is correct. I am writing for a general non-specialist audience of IT people who are mainly familiar with Windows, and I am trying to describe the pros and cons of alternative OSes, with very limited time and length. > I've used it off on and on for a few years now, but never as my main OS. This is not the first time I've installed (or, sometimes, _tried_ to install) NetBSD but it's the first time I had reason to give it a concerted effort. > The install process the author describes (in virtualbox) didn't sound right. I have heard that from several people. All I did was very simple: download the ISO; create a VM; boot the ISO in the VM and proceed from there, as far as possible, just accepting defaults. (For context: I have been using xNix OSes since 1988. I am a NetBSD newbie but not a PC or Unix newbie.) If that doesn't work, or delivers poor results, then IMHO those are problems, and I describe them as such. > When I install it, I don't need to reboot then use sysinst... Like I said: I mostly accepted defaults. I had never even heard of `sysinst` before I started. > I use sysinst during the install process to install pkgin, add a user, config my network etc, etc; Maybe I could, but I didn't know how or that I should know to do these things. They are apparently not defaults. I think they should be. > then when I reboot and login I can config doas/sudo to my liking Why should a new user have to configure these things? I don't think they should. They are normal parts of the xNix world since Mac OS X 10.0 came out 21 years ago. They should be there, working, enabled and ready to go, right on the install medium before installation. > and start installing binary packages via pkgin. One of my commenters on the Reg said that they had never even heard of "pkgin" and that I was doing it wrong. I submit that is evidence of the extreme fragmentation of the NetBSD community. I also submit that this stuff should be on, enabled and available, by default, from the first boot. > It's all pretty straightforward in my opinion. I disagree. > Later on, the author compares installing net to arch and gentoo. I find NetBSD much easier to install both of those. I strongly disagree. For example, Arch has comprehensive docs. That means "JFGI" and get useful answers. NetBSD does not, as I attempted to describe and illustrate with links. Commentary on that: docs hidden inside PDF files are not enough. Take the Arch wiki as an example of How This Should Be Done. > Something else that irked me was describing NetBSD as "not like just another linux distro." well, of course not, it's a completely independent OS! I am fully aware of that, and the more informed of my readers are, too. However, consider the motto of Distrowatch: "Put the fun back in computing. Use Linux, BSD." For non-specialists, all PC Unixes are one. (And I agree.) They are just points on a spectrum. They are all just free implementations of the basic xNix design. Some run on lots of platforms, including RISC and vintage kit. Some run on nothing but modern x86-64 PCs with UEFI. For a non-expert viewer those are minor implementation details, akin to weird arcane disagreements over the wording of different free software licences. Normal people do not know or care. (Maybe they should; that is a totally different argument and one I am not interested in here. In real life, they don't.) So, yes, NetBSD is competing directly against Linux distros at the weird, hard, DIY end of the spectrum, and the 2 best examples of that I can think of (that any interested non-specialist might have ever heard of) are Arch and Gentoo. > I did agree about the documentation, and about looking for help online. Well, good, glad to hear it, and thank you. :-) > In my first experience using Net, googling isn't really useful for more complex problems. I concur. > You can find help on the mailing lists, Not when you have an editor phoning you up and saying "Liam, where is my copy? I need it now!" Which is directly analagous to someone trying this at home at 2AM when the partner and kids are asleep and there's nobody to help and they don't know who to ask. I spend lots of time on mailing lists but they are no help when you need an answer RIGHT NOW OR ELSE. > unitedbsd.com, Never heard of it. :-( > and reddit Been a Redditor for 15 years or so. I know when the narwhal bacons. But I rarely get much useful info from it. > but a new user wouldn't know that. ... Which is indeed the mindset I try to put myself in when writing this stuff. > Free and Open have better documentation And better support for modern hardware, and better installation programs, and better defaults, and _still_ IMHO neither is very good and neither competes with anything except the worst, weirdest, most niche Linux distros. Sorry if that hurts feelings but it's the truth as I see it, with considerable expert knowledge. > and linux has countless online resources. It does, yes. And that needs to be factored in, for users, for developers, and for documentarians. For instance a FAQ for openSUSE is "what is the SUSE equivalent of Ubuntu's `build-essential`?" This angers the openSUSE faithful who don't know or care, but it's a perfectly fair question. Anyone trying to install openSUSE in Virtualbox needs to find this out to install the guest additions. Also, for comparison, openSUSE has no command to update GRUB. These are failings. And someone in there knows, because if you accidentally type Debian APT commands in openSUSE, they work. It silently accepts them, translates them to Zypper commands and tries to do it. This is The Right Thing To Do. If only the principle were applied more widely, and it understood that having a package aliased to "build-essential" and a command aliased to `update-grub` would help people who only know Ubuntu who wanted to try out openSUSE in a VM. Well, 99% of the potential users of NetBSD already have some basic Linux knowledge. So a very good way to explain things is to give answers to questions in terms of Linux tools. So a good answer to "how to install software" is "The NetBSD equivalent of `apt` and `yum` or `dnf` is called `pkgin`..." and then ensure it's installed by default and available to all. I could go on but this is already a long answer. But net's problem re: documentation is just a question of manpower.
- lproven 4y ago
  Oops, sorry, pasto error in there. The last line was (meant to be) a quote: > But net's problem re: documentation is just a question of manpower. Yes, I can imagine, and I take your point. But given limited manpower, then the question of where to spend it becomes even more important. I suggest that a categorized wiki with lots of little pages would be much more helpful than a single great big PDF file.
  - nortonham 4y ago
    There is a wiki on the official site. There's also a guide (similar to freebsd's handbook). >But given limited manpower, then the question of where to spend it becomes even more important. Agreed, and the NetBSD team have apparently decided their time is best used supporting as many different arch's as possible, while also keeping up with the project's goals, which are stated on their website. Anyways, I think I've written too much about NetBSD haha. Thanks again for taking time out to respond.
- nortonham 4y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to read my comment and respond! I hope you try out NetBSD and give it more time when 10 is released. It's not my main OS, but as I think I said in my last comment, it has a friendly and dedicated community. It's also very much community driven, and therefore does lag due to lack of manpower. Even with all of NetBSD's faults, I'm not entirely sure you gave it a fair shot. I'm going to do some friendly nit-picking now... ;) >Sorry if that hurts feelings but it's the truth as I see it, with considerable expert knowledge. No hurt feelings here, just a commentary from a non-expert on what I thought wasn't a well put together article. >Not when you have an editor phoning you up and saying "Liam, where is my copy? I need it now!" I agree NetBSD has it's issues, but your deadlines aren't a responsibility of NetBSD, and I don't see a situation where someone installs a new, slightly obscure OS and then needs answers NOW..... If the mailing lists aren't fast enough, there's the NetBSD subreddit, which isn't as active as say /r/linux, but if you asked a question there you would get an answer. It happens everyday. I mentioned unitedbsd.com because if you google something about netbsd, that forum seems to come up. It's fairly active and people will help you out. You're trying to come from the perspective of a new user. I would think people using something new for the first time might google it, or try youtube. The second result of a youtube search is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMC3fIj5IVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMC3fIj5IVQ an install of 9.2. The install process hasn't changed much (or at all) between 9.2 and 9.3. I did see the reg commenter who said that they didn't know what pkgin in is. Pkgin is in the official documentation for NetBSD. Honestly, my biggest gripe and the only thing I really didn't get is how you went about installing it. You said you just followed defaults, but the install is menu driven? After you install the base sets, you're given a menu (https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-exinst.html#exinst-system-configuration https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-exinst.html#exinst...) that allows you to config your network, set a root password, add a user, set up pkgin to "enable installation of binary packages" etc. Wouldn't a new user be interested in what that menu has to offer? Or are you suggesting they would just skip the whole process entirely and reboot their system? >For non-specialists, all PC Unixes are one. I wrote a long paragraph here then deleted it; this is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on. In relation to that, I would disagree with what you wrote here: > I am writing for a general non-specialist audience of IT people who are mainly familiar with Windows The Register seems to have a pretty knowledgeable audience, and they must be familiar with at least mainstream linux distros? >For a non-expert viewer those are minor implementation details, akin to weird arcane disagreements over the wording of different free software licenses. Normal people do not know or care. (Maybe they should; that is a totally different argument and one I am not interested in here. In real life, they don't.) I agree the average person doesn't need to get lost in flame wars about software licenses, but I never argued that. I'm just talking about understanding that NetBSD!=Linux, just like debian!=fedora. They all have different quirks that would have to be dealt with as you learn to use them. No different that switching between windows or macOS. I agree with you're article and your comment about Net's documentation and hardware support. But that all comes down to manpower and money, which it has far less of than any linux or any BSD.

lproven 4y ago

[Author and poster of the article here] > I thought this was actually not that great of a write up I am sorry to hear that. :-( If you have the time and the inclination, I'd like to learn more about why, so that I can perhaps improve future articles. > although it's from the perspective of someone who has never used it. Yes, that is correct. I am writing for a general non-specialist audience of IT people who are mainly familiar with Windows, and I am trying to describe the pros and cons of alternative OSes, with very limited time and length. > I've used it off on and on for a few years now, but never as my main OS. This is not the first time I've installed (or, sometimes, _tried_ to install) NetBSD but it's the first time I had reason to give it a concerted effort. > The install process the author describes (in virtualbox) didn't sound right. I have heard that from several people. All I did was very simple: download the ISO; create a VM; boot the ISO in the VM and proceed from there, as far as possible, just accepting defaults. (For context: I have been using xNix OSes since 1988. I am a NetBSD newbie but not a PC or Unix newbie.) If that doesn't work, or delivers poor results, then IMHO those are problems, and I describe them as such. > When I install it, I don't need to reboot then use sysinst... Like I said: I mostly accepted defaults. I had never even heard of `sysinst` before I started. > I use sysinst during the install process to install pkgin, add a user, config my network etc, etc; Maybe I could, but I didn't know how or that I should know to do these things. They are apparently not defaults. I think they should be. > then when I reboot and login I can config doas/sudo to my liking Why should a new user have to configure these things? I don't think they should. They are normal parts of the xNix world since Mac OS X 10.0 came out 21 years ago. They should be there, working, enabled and ready to go, right on the install medium before installation. > and start installing binary packages via pkgin. One of my commenters on the Reg said that they had never even heard of "pkgin" and that I was doing it wrong. I submit that is evidence of the extreme fragmentation of the NetBSD community. I also submit that this stuff should be on, enabled and available, by default, from the first boot. > It's all pretty straightforward in my opinion. I disagree. > Later on, the author compares installing net to arch and gentoo. I find NetBSD much easier to install both of those. I strongly disagree. For example, Arch has comprehensive docs. That means "JFGI" and get useful answers. NetBSD does not, as I attempted to describe and illustrate with links. Commentary on that: docs hidden inside PDF files are not enough. Take the Arch wiki as an example of How This Should Be Done. > Something else that irked me was describing NetBSD as "not like just another linux distro." well, of course not, it's a completely independent OS! I am fully aware of that, and the more informed of my readers are, too. However, consider the motto of Distrowatch: "Put the fun back in computing. Use Linux, BSD." For non-specialists, all PC Unixes are one. (And I agree.) They are just points on a spectrum. They are all just free implementations of the basic xNix design. Some run on lots of platforms, including RISC and vintage kit. Some run on nothing but modern x86-64 PCs with UEFI. For a non-expert viewer those are minor implementation details, akin to weird arcane disagreements over the wording of different free software licences. Normal people do not know or care. (Maybe they should; that is a totally different argument and one I am not interested in here. In real life, they don't.) So, yes, NetBSD is competing directly against Linux distros at the weird, hard, DIY end of the spectrum, and the 2 best examples of that I can think of (that any interested non-specialist might have ever heard of) are Arch and Gentoo. > I did agree about the documentation, and about looking for help online. Well, good, glad to hear it, and thank you. :-) > In my first experience using Net, googling isn't really useful for more complex problems. I concur. > You can find help on the mailing lists, Not when you have an editor phoning you up and saying "Liam, where is my copy? I need it now!" Which is directly analagous to someone trying this at home at 2AM when the partner and kids are asleep and there's nobody to help and they don't know who to ask. I spend lots of time on mailing lists but they are no help when you need an answer RIGHT NOW OR ELSE. > unitedbsd.com, Never heard of it. :-( > and reddit Been a Redditor for 15 years or so. I know when the narwhal bacons. But I rarely get much useful info from it. > but a new user wouldn't know that. ... Which is indeed the mindset I try to put myself in when writing this stuff. > Free and Open have better documentation And better support for modern hardware, and better installation programs, and better defaults, and _still_ IMHO neither is very good and neither competes with anything except the worst, weirdest, most niche Linux distros. Sorry if that hurts feelings but it's the truth as I see it, with considerable expert knowledge. > and linux has countless online resources. It does, yes. And that needs to be factored in, for users, for developers, and for documentarians. For instance a FAQ for openSUSE is "what is the SUSE equivalent of Ubuntu's `build-essential`?" This angers the openSUSE faithful who don't know or care, but it's a perfectly fair question. Anyone trying to install openSUSE in Virtualbox needs to find this out to install the guest additions. Also, for comparison, openSUSE has no command to update GRUB. These are failings. And someone in there knows, because if you accidentally type Debian APT commands in openSUSE, they work. It silently accepts them, translates them to Zypper commands and tries to do it. This is The Right Thing To Do. If only the principle were applied more widely, and it understood that having a package aliased to "build-essential" and a command aliased to `update-grub` would help people who only know Ubuntu who wanted to try out openSUSE in a VM. Well, 99% of the potential users of NetBSD already have some basic Linux knowledge. So a very good way to explain things is to give answers to questions in terms of Linux tools. So a good answer to "how to install software" is "The NetBSD equivalent of `apt` and `yum` or `dnf` is called `pkgin`..." and then ensure it's installed by default and available to all. I could go on but this is already a long answer. But net's problem re: documentation is just a question of manpower.

lproven 4y ago
Oops, sorry, pasto error in there. The last line was (meant to be) a quote: > But net's problem re: documentation is just a question of manpower. Yes, I can imagine, and I take your point. But given limited manpower, then the question of where to spend it becomes even more important. I suggest that a categorized wiki with lots of little pages would be much more helpful than a single great big PDF file.
- nortonham 4y ago
  There is a wiki on the official site. There's also a guide (similar to freebsd's handbook). >But given limited manpower, then the question of where to spend it becomes even more important. Agreed, and the NetBSD team have apparently decided their time is best used supporting as many different arch's as possible, while also keeping up with the project's goals, which are stated on their website. Anyways, I think I've written too much about NetBSD haha. Thanks again for taking time out to respond.
nortonham 4y ago
Thanks for taking the time to read my comment and respond! I hope you try out NetBSD and give it more time when 10 is released. It's not my main OS, but as I think I said in my last comment, it has a friendly and dedicated community. It's also very much community driven, and therefore does lag due to lack of manpower. Even with all of NetBSD's faults, I'm not entirely sure you gave it a fair shot. I'm going to do some friendly nit-picking now... ;) >Sorry if that hurts feelings but it's the truth as I see it, with considerable expert knowledge. No hurt feelings here, just a commentary from a non-expert on what I thought wasn't a well put together article. >Not when you have an editor phoning you up and saying "Liam, where is my copy? I need it now!" I agree NetBSD has it's issues, but your deadlines aren't a responsibility of NetBSD, and I don't see a situation where someone installs a new, slightly obscure OS and then needs answers NOW..... If the mailing lists aren't fast enough, there's the NetBSD subreddit, which isn't as active as say /r/linux, but if you asked a question there you would get an answer. It happens everyday. I mentioned unitedbsd.com because if you google something about netbsd, that forum seems to come up. It's fairly active and people will help you out. You're trying to come from the perspective of a new user. I would think people using something new for the first time might google it, or try youtube. The second result of a youtube search is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMC3fIj5IVQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMC3fIj5IVQ an install of 9.2. The install process hasn't changed much (or at all) between 9.2 and 9.3. I did see the reg commenter who said that they didn't know what pkgin in is. Pkgin is in the official documentation for NetBSD. Honestly, my biggest gripe and the only thing I really didn't get is how you went about installing it. You said you just followed defaults, but the install is menu driven? After you install the base sets, you're given a menu (https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-exinst.html#exinst-system-configuration https://www.netbsd.org/docs/guide/en/chap-exinst.html#exinst...) that allows you to config your network, set a root password, add a user, set up pkgin to "enable installation of binary packages" etc. Wouldn't a new user be interested in what that menu has to offer? Or are you suggesting they would just skip the whole process entirely and reboot their system? >For non-specialists, all PC Unixes are one. I wrote a long paragraph here then deleted it; this is one of those things we can just agree to disagree on. In relation to that, I would disagree with what you wrote here: > I am writing for a general non-specialist audience of IT people who are mainly familiar with Windows The Register seems to have a pretty knowledgeable audience, and they must be familiar with at least mainstream linux distros? >For a non-expert viewer those are minor implementation details, akin to weird arcane disagreements over the wording of different free software licenses. Normal people do not know or care. (Maybe they should; that is a totally different argument and one I am not interested in here. In real life, they don't.) I agree the average person doesn't need to get lost in flame wars about software licenses, but I never argued that. I'm just talking about understanding that NetBSD!=Linux, just like debian!=fedora. They all have different quirks that would have to be dealt with as you learn to use them. No different that switching between windows or macOS. I agree with you're article and your comment about Net's documentation and hardware support. But that all comes down to manpower and money, which it has far less of than any linux or any BSD.