7 ms·

This reads to me like the (more complicated but ultimately) equivalent of "a user reverse engineers the website's javascript!". As in, this allows the user to m

This reads to me like the (more complicated but ultimately) equivalent of "a user reverse engineers the website's javascript!". As in, this allows the user to mod their client but it doesn't change anything for anyone else, and wasn't meant as a real secure element. I'd assume that getting root access to the user terminal gives them no additional privileges to access the actual Starlink data & control planes.

jandrese 4y ago
It might allow them to do things like connect to the Starlink network outside of their geofence. Or hacking a stationary antenna to work on a moving vehicle.
- olalonde 4y ago
  > connect to the Starlink network outside of their geofence I was wondering about that but can't they determine the location "server side" by triangulation? Or maybe they could in theory but they don't in practice?
  - colechristensen 4y ago
    Knowing the positions of all the clients and satellites is a basic requirement for operating the network.
    - jandrese 4y ago
      For the satellites this is true, but it's not necessary for the clients to be geolocated when the satellite is operating as a bent pipe. Starlink will know which clients are in which footprint and can locate anybody if they want to, but it's not fundamental to the functionality of the system.
      - colechristensen 4y ago
        Both the client and the satellite use beam forming. The signal is pointed at you in a relatively narrow beam not broadcast spherically. They have to know where you are to point at you (phased array antennas so electronic not physical pointing)
        Denvercoder9 4y ago
        I'm not too familar with the low-level details of the Starlink network, but in the slides of the talk it's shown that the dish contains a GPS receiver, so isn't it possible that the client tells the satellite its location on first contact?
        colechristensen 4y ago
        GPS is the cheap, easy, and more accurate method of finding and determining location. Time sync is also an important part of satellite communication. They could effectively reimplement GPS or an equivalent location tech with their network but why when a high quality positioning solution already exists. They will be continually syncing time and position data for the orbits of satellites and positions of clients. (static clients obviously don't need this often outside of timekeeping, but you can set up a mobile plan for RVs, boats, etc which obviously move a lot)
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        There is a paper out there where someone demonstrates that it would take 1.6% of constellation downlink capacity for StarLink to serve as its own GNSS. As you mention, the GPS network is very high quality, and would only make sense in areas where GPS was undeserving or active denial was expected (and StarLink had the capability to avoid jamming). Edit: I misrecalled. StarLink can provide 10x more precise positioning than GPS. https://www.telecomstechnews.com/news/2020/sep/28/starlink-satellites-robust-navigation-gps/ https://www.telecomstechnews.com/news/2020/sep/28/starlink-s... https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.12334 https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.12334
    - deleted 4y ago
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- Clent 4y ago
  Would this negatively affect the network? My understanding is that it would make your device less reliable. This is simply a warranty voiding event.
  - gpm 4y ago
    It would in the same sense as illegally attaching a wire to the power cables and drawing electricity out of them does. You're stealing a limited resource (in this case radio bandwidth in an region for which you haven't purchased it, in the analogy power), but you're not doing so any more than a legitimate user would be assuming it's done "properly". If too many people do this, things stop working, because you exhaust the limited resource.
thedougd 4y ago
If it gives you direct/raw access to the control plane, you then may be able to launch denial of service and other attacks that would negatively impact the network and other terminals. I don't know anything about the Starlink protocol, but a rough Ethernet analog might be an ARP attack/flood.
- extheat 4y ago
  That’s like saying you can hack 5G because you can root your phone.
  - thedougd 4y ago
    Not rooting your phone, but hacking the baseband. And since we're talking about disassembling devices and performing low voltage attacks to reveal secrets, I would draw the analog to baseband hacking. https://resources.infosecinstitute.com/topic/how-to-hack-mobile-communications-via-unisoc-baseband-vulnerability/ https://resources.infosecinstitute.com/topic/how-to-hack-mob... ...found a vulnerability (CVE-2022-20210) that can be abused to disrupt the device’s radio communication via a malformed packet causing a DoS condition. This vulnerability allows attackers can neutralize communications in a specific location.
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jandrese 4y ago

It might allow them to do things like connect to the Starlink network outside of their geofence. Or hacking a stationary antenna to work on a moving vehicle.

olalonde 4y ago
> connect to the Starlink network outside of their geofence I was wondering about that but can't they determine the location "server side" by triangulation? Or maybe they could in theory but they don't in practice?
- colechristensen 4y ago
  Knowing the positions of all the clients and satellites is a basic requirement for operating the network.
  - jandrese 4y ago
    For the satellites this is true, but it's not necessary for the clients to be geolocated when the satellite is operating as a bent pipe. Starlink will know which clients are in which footprint and can locate anybody if they want to, but it's not fundamental to the functionality of the system.
    - colechristensen 4y ago
      Both the client and the satellite use beam forming. The signal is pointed at you in a relatively narrow beam not broadcast spherically. They have to know where you are to point at you (phased array antennas so electronic not physical pointing)
      - Denvercoder9 4y ago
        I'm not too familar with the low-level details of the Starlink network, but in the slides of the talk it's shown that the dish contains a GPS receiver, so isn't it possible that the client tells the satellite its location on first contact?
        colechristensen 4y ago
        GPS is the cheap, easy, and more accurate method of finding and determining location. Time sync is also an important part of satellite communication. They could effectively reimplement GPS or an equivalent location tech with their network but why when a high quality positioning solution already exists. They will be continually syncing time and position data for the orbits of satellites and positions of clients. (static clients obviously don't need this often outside of timekeeping, but you can set up a mobile plan for RVs, boats, etc which obviously move a lot)
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        There is a paper out there where someone demonstrates that it would take 1.6% of constellation downlink capacity for StarLink to serve as its own GNSS. As you mention, the GPS network is very high quality, and would only make sense in areas where GPS was undeserving or active denial was expected (and StarLink had the capability to avoid jamming). Edit: I misrecalled. StarLink can provide 10x more precise positioning than GPS. https://www.telecomstechnews.com/news/2020/sep/28/starlink-satellites-robust-navigation-gps/ https://www.telecomstechnews.com/news/2020/sep/28/starlink-s... https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.12334 https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.12334
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
Clent 4y ago
Would this negatively affect the network? My understanding is that it would make your device less reliable. This is simply a warranty voiding event.
- gpm 4y ago
  It would in the same sense as illegally attaching a wire to the power cables and drawing electricity out of them does. You're stealing a limited resource (in this case radio bandwidth in an region for which you haven't purchased it, in the analogy power), but you're not doing so any more than a legitimate user would be assuming it's done "properly". If too many people do this, things stop working, because you exhaust the limited resource.

thedougd 4y ago

If it gives you direct/raw access to the control plane, you then may be able to launch denial of service and other attacks that would negatively impact the network and other terminals. I don't know anything about the Starlink protocol, but a rough Ethernet analog might be an ARP attack/flood.

extheat 4y ago
That’s like saying you can hack 5G because you can root your phone.
- thedougd 4y ago
  Not rooting your phone, but hacking the baseband. And since we're talking about disassembling devices and performing low voltage attacks to reveal secrets, I would draw the analog to baseband hacking. https://resources.infosecinstitute.com/topic/how-to-hack-mobile-communications-via-unisoc-baseband-vulnerability/ https://resources.infosecinstitute.com/topic/how-to-hack-mob... ...found a vulnerability (CVE-2022-20210) that can be abused to disrupt the device’s radio communication via a malformed packet causing a DoS condition. This vulnerability allows attackers can neutralize communications in a specific location.

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