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My view actually is that most of the world is actually really bad at hiring, and we spend lots of time complaining about the tech world doing it but that's beca

My view actually is that most of the world is actually really bad at hiring, and we spend lots of time complaining about the tech world doing it but that's because the tech world tries a lot harder. This is anecdata, but based on talking to my wife and friends who work in other industries most recruitment is pot luck. They interview the candidate for 1 hour, maybe 2, don't have any consistency in what they're asking and no standard criteria for 'good enough'. It's all subjective and down to the interviewer (maybe two of them if you're lucky). You then get stuck with a proportion of your staff who are dead weight. I'm not sure of the reasons why the technology sector cares more. Possibly because the difference between "good" and "bad" is much bigger - maybe not the mythical 10x, but more than the difference between one accountant and another. Or maybe it's just that these are all newer companies who don't have the older ideas holding them back and have discovered a better way to be profitable.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
Lots of industries have licensing requirements. My friends that are all of the above (except CEOs), need to have licenses (and often, specific schooling). They work hard for these licenses, and generally have to pass lots of difficult tests. They usually also have to keep working to stay current. The mere thought of doing that, in the tech world, though, brings about collective apoplexy. I'm not especially a fan of how licenses can be used to protect incumbents, and bar entry to otherwise highly capable people. They do, however, go a long ways towards ensuring that a building doesn't fall down, the first time a hot rod drives by. But hiring always has been "pot luck." Been that way, for -literally- thousands of years. That's why hiring good managers has always been important, and there's really no way to test for that. For whatever reason, we seem to think we get to play by different rules.
- fsloth 4y ago
  " good managers has always been important, and there's really no way to test for that. For whatever reason, we seem to think we get to play by different rules." I presume one reason may be because tech industry may be a bit insular, and full of people who enjoy creating complex models of the world - trying to find a perfect technological solution to everything (when they should just try to find a good hiring manager in stead).
- rkangel 4y ago
  The software engineering profession is moving at light speed compared to any of those other careers. It is specific to us and not engineering as a whole too - as you point out, structural engineering does have qualifications required (chartered status). Medicine does move on, but a lot of what a doctor needs to do doesn't. And the bits that do are actually a problem with there not being a good way of ensuring that doctors use up to date techniques. The difference is that structural engineers and doctors are safeguarding safety, and (most) software engineers aren't. If someone suggested people should need chartered status to work on medical device software I don't think that would be as controversial, and will get progressively less so as the discipline is less brand new and progress slows down a bit.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
    But I think anyone that handles PID should be held to account, as to what happens to that data. We have been doing a terrible job of that. Many apps that I encounter, are pretty much bald-faced, unapologetic, data harvesters. That’s clearly their main purpose, and their stated purpose is really just the lure on an anglerfish. “Move fast and break things” sounds good, until you realize that said “things” may be people’s lives.
    - rkangel 4y ago
      This is absolutely true, but it's a function of the business, not the individual engineer. It's not just about engineering at all - one of the biggest GDPR fines was to H&M for some internal data that managers were keeping on some employees.
    - drewcoo 4y ago
      Our profession has no code of ethics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_ethics
      - ghaff 4y ago
        I don't know why it's not in that article but, e.g. from the Association of Computing Machinery (ACM). https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics
fsloth 4y ago
The role of a programmer is really weird in the sense that the complexity of tasks you are expected to do is in no way limited by your job title or domain. I presume technology sector pays more attention because the task of programmer is ill defined, and that it's quite hard to define exactly what you are looking for based on external standards.

ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago

Lots of industries have licensing requirements. My friends that are all of the above (except CEOs), need to have licenses (and often, specific schooling). They work hard for these licenses, and generally have to pass lots of difficult tests. They usually also have to keep working to stay current. The mere thought of doing that, in the tech world, though, brings about collective apoplexy. I'm not especially a fan of how licenses can be used to protect incumbents, and bar entry to otherwise highly capable people. They do, however, go a long ways towards ensuring that a building doesn't fall down, the first time a hot rod drives by. But hiring always has been "pot luck." Been that way, for -literally- thousands of years. That's why hiring good managers has always been important, and there's really no way to test for that. For whatever reason, we seem to think we get to play by different rules.

fsloth 4y ago
" good managers has always been important, and there's really no way to test for that. For whatever reason, we seem to think we get to play by different rules." I presume one reason may be because tech industry may be a bit insular, and full of people who enjoy creating complex models of the world - trying to find a perfect technological solution to everything (when they should just try to find a good hiring manager in stead).
rkangel 4y ago
The software engineering profession is moving at light speed compared to any of those other careers. It is specific to us and not engineering as a whole too - as you point out, structural engineering does have qualifications required (chartered status). Medicine does move on, but a lot of what a doctor needs to do doesn't. And the bits that do are actually a problem with there not being a good way of ensuring that doctors use up to date techniques. The difference is that structural engineers and doctors are safeguarding safety, and (most) software engineers aren't. If someone suggested people should need chartered status to work on medical device software I don't think that would be as controversial, and will get progressively less so as the discipline is less brand new and progress slows down a bit.
- ChrisMarshallNY 4y ago
  But I think anyone that handles PID should be held to account, as to what happens to that data. We have been doing a terrible job of that. Many apps that I encounter, are pretty much bald-faced, unapologetic, data harvesters. That’s clearly their main purpose, and their stated purpose is really just the lure on an anglerfish. “Move fast and break things” sounds good, until you realize that said “things” may be people’s lives.
  - rkangel 4y ago
    This is absolutely true, but it's a function of the business, not the individual engineer. It's not just about engineering at all - one of the biggest GDPR fines was to H&M for some internal data that managers were keeping on some employees.
  - drewcoo 4y ago
    Our profession has no code of ethics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_ethics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_ethics
    - ghaff 4y ago
      I don't know why it's not in that article but, e.g. from the Association of Computing Machinery (ACM). https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics https://www.acm.org/code-of-ethics

fsloth 4y ago

The role of a programmer is really weird in the sense that the complexity of tasks you are expected to do is in no way limited by your job title or domain. I presume technology sector pays more attention because the task of programmer is ill defined, and that it's quite hard to define exactly what you are looking for based on external standards.