3 ms·

I mean practically Níl on its own is no in actual spoken Irish, but that is a relatively recent usage that came about because approximately all Irish speakers l

by Macha 4y ago

I mean practically Níl on its own is no in actual spoken Irish, but that is a relatively recent usage that came about because approximately all Irish speakers learned English as a first language and want to import the usage. But yes, officially and historically the correct response was like "Níl aon tickead agam" or "There is no ticket on me", or less directly translated/less awkwardly "I don't have a ticket"

derriz 4y ago
Really? This must be a very recent change. If your teacher asked you "An dTuigeann Tú?" ("do you understand?"), they would accept "Níl" as an answer? It sounds horribly off to me.
- Macha 4y ago
  Teachers would also correct someone asking "Can I <do XYZ>?" to "May I <do XYZ>?", but the former would be perfectly accepted in regular conversation. Academic standards are (well, usually and hopefully) higher than conversational standards.
LAC-Tech 4y ago
When I visited Ireland, one of the defining characteristics of the Irish dialect of English was the absence of yes/no - it definitely stood out to me that people would respond to stuff like "did you eat lunch?" with "I did". Weird to see that not only has yes/no come into the English spoken in Ireland, but is now being backported to the Gaelic.
- programmer_dude 4y ago
  You have to admit yes and no are pretty useful words!
  - LAC-Tech 4y ago
    I don't ;)
    - programmer_dude 4y ago
      Fair enough :)
messe 4y ago
It depends on the speaker, the usage is much more common among people who haven't learned the language to any degree of fluency (which is the majority of people who claim to speak Irish). Hearing "Níl" in response to a question that didn't involve "An bhfuil?" still sounds off to me, but languages change over time.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  > but languages change over time. I would argue there's a difference between natural language change among natives and language change because learners can't/won't learn something right. What we're actually seeing isn't language change, but language shift (in the Gaeltacht), where Irish loses all that separates it from English as English creeps in, and language formation (outside the Gaeltacht) as a sort of Gaelo-Anglo pidgin/creole is being formed.
  - Mannybilbao 4y ago
    As a Spaniard living in Ireland I couldn't detect much difference in how the Irish I heard at the popup gaeltacht event sounded compared to English as a language (though when I first visited Kerry I thought some of the older men were speaking Gaelic because of how they spoke English) I'd expect people to not want their Irish to sound so like English (jibberish English like the Simms) but it doesn't seem to be something learners or educationists care about or are aware of
    - messe 4y ago
      There's two factors there though. The first is how English accents in those localities have been influenced by historic use of Irish there. The second is how the accents learners of Irish are now being influenced by English phonetics. The biggest problem with the latter is a lot of learners don't grasp the Slender/Broad consonants distinction at all (it's a palatilization/velarization distinction similar to the soft/hard distiction in Slavic languages).
    - dorchadas 4y ago
      Honestly, most people don't know and don't care. They use their little phrase 'Broken Irish is better than clever English' to hide/dismiss any concerns as well. It's a huge issue though -- the native sounds are dying, and learners are killing them. Put off by saying "Oh, it's just my dialect" (it's not, you're not a native speaker; you don't have a dialect!)

by Macha 4y ago

derriz 4y ago

Really? This must be a very recent change. If your teacher asked you "An dTuigeann Tú?" ("do you understand?"), they would accept "Níl" as an answer? It sounds horribly off to me.

Macha 4y ago
Teachers would also correct someone asking "Can I <do XYZ>?" to "May I <do XYZ>?", but the former would be perfectly accepted in regular conversation. Academic standards are (well, usually and hopefully) higher than conversational standards.

LAC-Tech 4y ago

When I visited Ireland, one of the defining characteristics of the Irish dialect of English was the absence of yes/no - it definitely stood out to me that people would respond to stuff like "did you eat lunch?" with "I did". Weird to see that not only has yes/no come into the English spoken in Ireland, but is now being backported to the Gaelic.

programmer_dude 4y ago
You have to admit yes and no are pretty useful words!
- LAC-Tech 4y ago
  I don't ;)
  - programmer_dude 4y ago
    Fair enough :)

messe 4y ago

It depends on the speaker, the usage is much more common among people who haven't learned the language to any degree of fluency (which is the majority of people who claim to speak Irish). Hearing "Níl" in response to a question that didn't involve "An bhfuil?" still sounds off to me, but languages change over time.

dorchadas 4y ago
> but languages change over time. I would argue there's a difference between natural language change among natives and language change because learners can't/won't learn something right. What we're actually seeing isn't language change, but language shift (in the Gaeltacht), where Irish loses all that separates it from English as English creeps in, and language formation (outside the Gaeltacht) as a sort of Gaelo-Anglo pidgin/creole is being formed.
- Mannybilbao 4y ago
  As a Spaniard living in Ireland I couldn't detect much difference in how the Irish I heard at the popup gaeltacht event sounded compared to English as a language (though when I first visited Kerry I thought some of the older men were speaking Gaelic because of how they spoke English) I'd expect people to not want their Irish to sound so like English (jibberish English like the Simms) but it doesn't seem to be something learners or educationists care about or are aware of
  - messe 4y ago
    There's two factors there though. The first is how English accents in those localities have been influenced by historic use of Irish there. The second is how the accents learners of Irish are now being influenced by English phonetics. The biggest problem with the latter is a lot of learners don't grasp the Slender/Broad consonants distinction at all (it's a palatilization/velarization distinction similar to the soft/hard distiction in Slavic languages).
  - dorchadas 4y ago
    Honestly, most people don't know and don't care. They use their little phrase 'Broken Irish is better than clever English' to hide/dismiss any concerns as well. It's a huge issue though -- the native sounds are dying, and learners are killing them. Put off by saying "Oh, it's just my dialect" (it's not, you're not a native speaker; you don't have a dialect!)