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> Nepal's Kusunda language has no known origin and a number of quirks, like no words for "yes" or "no". That's not that uncommon, Scottish Gaelic and Irish, bo

by messe 4y ago

> Nepal's Kusunda language has no known origin and a number of quirks, like no words for "yes" or "no". That's not that uncommon, Scottish Gaelic and Irish, both spoken in the UK (take note British Broadcasting Corporation), have that same quirk—at least traditionally. There's some anecdotal evidence that with the number of non-native speakers learning the language, that Tá/Níl and Sea/Ní hea are starting to fill that gap in Irish. > including lacking any standard way of negating a sentence, [...], or any words for direction. These are much more interesting features (or lack thereof)! Why wouldn't the article lead with that? EDIT: This is even funnier after seeing that the author even has a name of Scottish Gaelic/Irish origin: Eileen McDougall.

w0mbat 4y ago
I came here to mention Irish/Gaelic traditionally lacking "yes" and "no". This leads to replies that seem a bit verbose but are kind of charming, e.g. "Would you like a cup of tea?" "I would not".
Ichthypresbyter 4y ago
I think Tá/Níl were used (after some debate) as Yes/No on the Irish-language ballot papers in various recent constitutional referenda in Ireland. (Gaelic in Scotland does not have the same official status as Irish in Ireland or Welsh in Wales, so the Scottish independence referendum ballots were only in English.)
- messe 4y ago
  Yes, they were. I can't remember the exact wording of the question, but I believe it was along the lines of "Are you in favour?" so the answer could be "I am/Tá", or "I am not/Níl". I could be wrong, so if somebody can remember the wording on the ballot paper, please don't hesitate to correct me.
dorchadas 4y ago
> There's some anecdotal evidence that with the number of non-native speakers learning the language, that Tá/Níl and Sea/Ní hea are starting to fill that gap in Irish. Only among non-natives or natives of the Neo-Irish that is starting to form outside the Gaeltacht. This is not a change that is happening, from my experience, in the Gaeltacht raised with traditional Irish speaking parents. It's really a sign of the weakening of the language.
- Macha 4y ago
  Do you want to have the language as a living language or as a fossilized relic? It's long been a complaint of the gaelgoir crowd that Irish people do not use the Irish language and they're losing touch with the culture. A consequence of the push for more widespread usage of the language that came from that is that a language in use evolves. Even English language media from 50 years ago is markedly different in the way the language is used. So I feel the influence of the Duolingo/meetup generation of Irish language speakers is both inevitable and arguably a sign of the increased uptake of the language - if such people were small in number compared to the traditional speakers, they could not have had this outsized influence. Also in the case of Tá/Níl as Yes/No in particular, the roots of that probably also have something to do with bilingual government forms adopting it as a space saving measure, so these new speakers have a lifetime of seeing Tá/Yes and Níl/No options on professionally translated forms that may also have primed this development.
  - dorchadas 4y ago
    > Do you want to have the language as a living language or as a fossilized relic? I want to see it remain a living language. I don't want to see it becoming, as it is in idiom, sounds and grammar, "English in Irish drag" (quoting a prominent linguist on the matter). It's not Irish. It's people substituting Irish words into English grammar, using English sounds and idioms to do so. That's the death of Irish. > It's long been a complaint of the gaelgoir crowd that Irish people do not use the Irish language and they're losing touch with the culture. There's a huge difference between the 'gaelgoir' crowd and native speakers (none of whom would call themselves Gaeilgeoirí -- those are specifically the learners who come in with notebooks or to the summer schools). > A consequence of the push for more widespread usage of the language that came from that is that a language in use evolves. Even English language media from 50 years ago is markedly different in the way the language is used. There's a difference between language evolution and language death. There's also a difference between learners not learning properly and native speakers changing the language naturally (.i. not under conditions of language death) > So I feel the influence of the Duolingo/meetup generation of Irish language speakers is both inevitable and arguably a sign of the increased uptake of the language - if such people were small in number compared to the traditional speakers, they could not have had this outsized influence. The problem is the shitty level of Irish held by most school teachers, even those in the Gaelscoileanna. And their ignorance on proper Irish idiom, grammar and sounds that then gets passed on. > Also in the case of Tá/Níl as Yes/No in particular, the roots of that probably also have something to do with bilingual government forms adopting it as a space saving measure, so these new speakers have a lifetime of seeing Tá/Yes and Níl/No options on professionally translated forms that may also have primed this development. And those forms are purposefully translated so that Tá/Yes Níl/No is an answer to an "An bhfuil" question, following proper Irish grammar (usually "An bhfuil tú i bhfábhar ..."). But, natural language change is not what's happening with Irish. Instead, we're seeing a split between the traditional Gaeltacht raised native speakers and a pidgin/creole forming in the urban areas. Sadly, only one can survive and it's less and less likely it'll be traditional Irish. Instead, we'll be left with something that calls itself Irish, but is really no different from English in the way it expresses concepts, the sounds it uses to express those concepts and, outside perhaps the very basics, the grammar it uses to express those concepts. The only thing different is the words it uses. That's not Irish. You'd never see this happening with any majority language -- French speakers would be rightfully up in arms if someone spoke French with English sounds, used English grammar and then claimed their French was just as authentic as the natives'. Sadly, we accept it -- praise it -- for Irish. At the expense of the traditional, rich native language and the Gaelic worldview (assuming linguistic relativity and/or cognitive metaphors shape the way we think; I lean towards the latter)
rkachowski 4y ago
I was taught in school that "tha" and "chan eil" are yes / no in Gaelic
becquerel 4y ago
Harder to make snappy for a headline, I guess! I agree that these qualities are much more interesting.
samastur 4y ago
I thought BBC Alba was there to broadcast in Gaelic.
- pjc50 4y ago
  That doesn't mean that any of the rest of the organisation is any more than dimly aware that either BBC Alba or Gaelic exists.
tgv 4y ago
So how do these languages (Scottish Gaelic and Irish) express affirmation and negation then? I couldn't find it on Wikipedia. I can imagine that affirmation would be a repeated variation on the question, as some languages do (e.g., "Have you got your ticket?" "I have it"), but negation?
- bergenty 4y ago
  Sounds like most of them just negate the operative verb in the question. Do you have a pen? Have Not have
- raverbashing 4y ago
  > as some languages do (e.g., "Have you got your ticket?" "I have it"), but negation? They say "I haven't it" (they negate the verb) (Which in English sound weird, but you can negate the verb without using 'no')
  - gerdesj 4y ago
    I aint is an old but still used negation of to have. So: "Got your ticket"? "I aint"! However this is heading into regional variance territory. Granny Weatherwax (Discworld witch) famously wore a sign saying: "I aten't dead" when off Borrowing.
  - Macha 4y ago
    I mean practically Níl on its own is no in actual spoken Irish, but that is a relatively recent usage that came about because approximately all Irish speakers learned English as a first language and want to import the usage. But yes, officially and historically the correct response was like "Níl aon tickead agam" or "There is no ticket on me", or less directly translated/less awkwardly "I don't have a ticket"
    - derriz 4y ago
      Really? This must be a very recent change. If your teacher asked you "An dTuigeann Tú?" ("do you understand?"), they would accept "Níl" as an answer? It sounds horribly off to me.
mjklin 4y ago
In fact filmmaker Manchán Magan had to borrow the English word “no” to title his documentary “No Béarla” (No English) in which he roamed Ireland attempting to speak only Irish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Béarla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Béarla
- Macha 4y ago
  I think that's pretty much to be a bit more harsh on Irish people who don't speak Irish, and also to be more recognisable as a title to non-Irish speakers (who would likely at least still recognise Béarla from years of Irish lessons). "Gan Bearla" or "Without English" would have been an equally short title without resorting to a bilingual title.
chris_j 4y ago
Ditto the Welsh language (also a Celtic language spoken in the UK), where there traditionally weren't words for yes and no and where the words used instead depend upon tense, person and the verb being responded to.
- messe 4y ago
  Interesting to know! I suspected that might be the case, but didn't include it as I'm not all that familiar with the Brittonic languages.
- DFHippie 4y ago
  > depend upon tense, person and the verb being responded to Or the structure of the sentence. -- Dych chi'n dwp? -- Ydw. (-- Are you stupid? -- Yes.) [verb initial] -- Athro wyt ti? -- Ie. (-- Are you a teacher? -- Yes.) [noun initial]
elil17 4y ago
This language is different - it lacks the concept of negation all together. There's no way to negate a verb in this language.
- messe 4y ago
  Yes, I pointed that out in the comment you responded to.
- macleginn 4y ago
  Of course there is, there are negative suffixes for that, see a grammatical overview here: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/83v8d1wv https://escholarship.org/uc/item/83v8d1wv
youngNed 4y ago
> take note British Broadcasting Corporation https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize <-- Gàidhlig / Gaeilge / Cymraeg language options available Gàidhlig - https://www.bbc.co.uk/alba https://www.bbc.co.uk/alba <-- a tv channel - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_nan_gaidheal https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_nan_gaidhea... <-- a radio channel - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p09xzjpm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p09xzjpm - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/p09xwbsz https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/p09xwbsz - https://speakgaelic.scot/ https://speakgaelic.scot/ Gaeilge - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/p084p79m https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/p084p79m <-- not a dedicated channel like Gàidhlig but regular TV programming - https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/subjects/zqtw7ty https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/subjects/zqtw7ty - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cpvp https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cpvp - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00cmsk6 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00cmsk6 I mean, thats just a very quick look, yes Gàidhlig is better served than Gaeilge but my feeling is that those looking for Gaeilge resources are probably looking elsewhere ;-)
- nailer 4y ago
  The point was that the BBC writer of this article should already be aware of Gaelic languages.
  - youngNed 4y ago
    > The point was that the BBC writer of this article should already be aware of Gaelic languages. Ah yes, i see that now, TY for pointing that out (i would imagine that the writer is not a 'BBC writer' but a freelancer, but yes, i see the point
nailer 4y ago
Dad spoke Irish at home (Galway) and uses Hibernian E English. “Are you posting on Hacker News?” “I am.” Easy.
eloisius 4y ago
Mandarin also does not have direct equivalents of ‘yes’ and ‘no’. There is a negator word 不 bù, but just answering 「不」 wouldn’t make sense. You answer a question with the verb that was asked. ‘Do you like coffee?’ ‘Like!’ or ‘不like‘. It doesn’t feel any different or make me experience any sort of mental contortion to use this pattern to convey the exact same information I’d convey in English. I used to really like these pop linguistics kind of articles about exotic languages without tenses or plurals or what have you. It made my imagination churn to think about how it might influence your conception of the world if you expressed time in terms of length, size, or quantity. I remember a RadioLab show about the ancient Greeks having no word for blue, and that as a result they couldn’t perceive it. I’ve since learned that this all stems from a theory called linguistic relativism, that the language we use constructs our worldview. I’m much less excited in this kind of idea since learning mandarin. I express the exact same thoughts and ideas I have in English, even if I express them without syntactical tenses, plurals, or whatever. Feels the same.
- Tainnor 4y ago
  > linguistic relativism is a really hot button issue in linguistics, because it obviously correlates with certain ideological worldviews one way or another. If you actually look at the data... it's complicated. In my view, neither the hardcore relativists nor the hardcore universalists are right. Probably there is some symbiotic relationship between the concepts we express in language and the saliency of certain distinctions in our habitual cognition. IOW, it's highly unlikely that the Ancient Greeks didn't perceive the colour blue (much less so that this was caused by their language), but it is possible that the distinction between the colour blue and certain other colours was not seen as as significant as other distinctions (e.g. saturation, brightness). But all this theory ultimately stems from this one expression in Homer about the "wine-red sea" and one can only speculate. If you want a good pop-sci overview of the situation, though still written by a linguist, try Guy Deutscher's "Through the Looking Glass". That said, he does come down a bit more on the pro-relativism side, so you may also want to read the counterarguments in John McWhorther's "The Language Hoax", which I haven't read though.
  - Ichthypresbyter 4y ago

by messe 4y ago

w0mbat 4y ago

I came here to mention Irish/Gaelic traditionally lacking "yes" and "no". This leads to replies that seem a bit verbose but are kind of charming, e.g. "Would you like a cup of tea?" "I would not".

Ichthypresbyter 4y ago

I think Tá/Níl were used (after some debate) as Yes/No on the Irish-language ballot papers in various recent constitutional referenda in Ireland. (Gaelic in Scotland does not have the same official status as Irish in Ireland or Welsh in Wales, so the Scottish independence referendum ballots were only in English.)

messe 4y ago
Yes, they were. I can't remember the exact wording of the question, but I believe it was along the lines of "Are you in favour?" so the answer could be "I am/Tá", or "I am not/Níl". I could be wrong, so if somebody can remember the wording on the ballot paper, please don't hesitate to correct me.

dorchadas 4y ago

> There's some anecdotal evidence that with the number of non-native speakers learning the language, that Tá/Níl and Sea/Ní hea are starting to fill that gap in Irish. Only among non-natives or natives of the Neo-Irish that is starting to form outside the Gaeltacht. This is not a change that is happening, from my experience, in the Gaeltacht raised with traditional Irish speaking parents. It's really a sign of the weakening of the language.

Macha 4y ago
Do you want to have the language as a living language or as a fossilized relic? It's long been a complaint of the gaelgoir crowd that Irish people do not use the Irish language and they're losing touch with the culture. A consequence of the push for more widespread usage of the language that came from that is that a language in use evolves. Even English language media from 50 years ago is markedly different in the way the language is used. So I feel the influence of the Duolingo/meetup generation of Irish language speakers is both inevitable and arguably a sign of the increased uptake of the language - if such people were small in number compared to the traditional speakers, they could not have had this outsized influence. Also in the case of Tá/Níl as Yes/No in particular, the roots of that probably also have something to do with bilingual government forms adopting it as a space saving measure, so these new speakers have a lifetime of seeing Tá/Yes and Níl/No options on professionally translated forms that may also have primed this development.
- dorchadas 4y ago
  > Do you want to have the language as a living language or as a fossilized relic? I want to see it remain a living language. I don't want to see it becoming, as it is in idiom, sounds and grammar, "English in Irish drag" (quoting a prominent linguist on the matter). It's not Irish. It's people substituting Irish words into English grammar, using English sounds and idioms to do so. That's the death of Irish. > It's long been a complaint of the gaelgoir crowd that Irish people do not use the Irish language and they're losing touch with the culture. There's a huge difference between the 'gaelgoir' crowd and native speakers (none of whom would call themselves Gaeilgeoirí -- those are specifically the learners who come in with notebooks or to the summer schools). > A consequence of the push for more widespread usage of the language that came from that is that a language in use evolves. Even English language media from 50 years ago is markedly different in the way the language is used. There's a difference between language evolution and language death. There's also a difference between learners not learning properly and native speakers changing the language naturally (.i. not under conditions of language death) > So I feel the influence of the Duolingo/meetup generation of Irish language speakers is both inevitable and arguably a sign of the increased uptake of the language - if such people were small in number compared to the traditional speakers, they could not have had this outsized influence. The problem is the shitty level of Irish held by most school teachers, even those in the Gaelscoileanna. And their ignorance on proper Irish idiom, grammar and sounds that then gets passed on. > Also in the case of Tá/Níl as Yes/No in particular, the roots of that probably also have something to do with bilingual government forms adopting it as a space saving measure, so these new speakers have a lifetime of seeing Tá/Yes and Níl/No options on professionally translated forms that may also have primed this development. And those forms are purposefully translated so that Tá/Yes Níl/No is an answer to an "An bhfuil" question, following proper Irish grammar (usually "An bhfuil tú i bhfábhar ..."). But, natural language change is not what's happening with Irish. Instead, we're seeing a split between the traditional Gaeltacht raised native speakers and a pidgin/creole forming in the urban areas. Sadly, only one can survive and it's less and less likely it'll be traditional Irish. Instead, we'll be left with something that calls itself Irish, but is really no different from English in the way it expresses concepts, the sounds it uses to express those concepts and, outside perhaps the very basics, the grammar it uses to express those concepts. The only thing different is the words it uses. That's not Irish. You'd never see this happening with any majority language -- French speakers would be rightfully up in arms if someone spoke French with English sounds, used English grammar and then claimed their French was just as authentic as the natives'. Sadly, we accept it -- praise it -- for Irish. At the expense of the traditional, rich native language and the Gaelic worldview (assuming linguistic relativity and/or cognitive metaphors shape the way we think; I lean towards the latter)

rkachowski 4y ago

I was taught in school that "tha" and "chan eil" are yes / no in Gaelic

becquerel 4y ago

Harder to make snappy for a headline, I guess! I agree that these qualities are much more interesting.

samastur 4y ago

I thought BBC Alba was there to broadcast in Gaelic.

pjc50 4y ago
That doesn't mean that any of the rest of the organisation is any more than dimly aware that either BBC Alba or Gaelic exists.

tgv 4y ago

So how do these languages (Scottish Gaelic and Irish) express affirmation and negation then? I couldn't find it on Wikipedia. I can imagine that affirmation would be a repeated variation on the question, as some languages do (e.g., "Have you got your ticket?" "I have it"), but negation?

bergenty 4y ago
Sounds like most of them just negate the operative verb in the question. Do you have a pen? Have Not have
raverbashing 4y ago
> as some languages do (e.g., "Have you got your ticket?" "I have it"), but negation? They say "I haven't it" (they negate the verb) (Which in English sound weird, but you can negate the verb without using 'no')
- gerdesj 4y ago
  I aint is an old but still used negation of to have. So: "Got your ticket"? "I aint"! However this is heading into regional variance territory. Granny Weatherwax (Discworld witch) famously wore a sign saying: "I aten't dead" when off Borrowing.
- Macha 4y ago
  I mean practically Níl on its own is no in actual spoken Irish, but that is a relatively recent usage that came about because approximately all Irish speakers learned English as a first language and want to import the usage. But yes, officially and historically the correct response was like "Níl aon tickead agam" or "There is no ticket on me", or less directly translated/less awkwardly "I don't have a ticket"
  - derriz 4y ago
    Really? This must be a very recent change. If your teacher asked you "An dTuigeann Tú?" ("do you understand?"), they would accept "Níl" as an answer? It sounds horribly off to me.

mjklin 4y ago

In fact filmmaker Manchán Magan had to borrow the English word “no” to title his documentary “No Béarla” (No English) in which he roamed Ireland attempting to speak only Irish. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Béarla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Béarla

Macha 4y ago
I think that's pretty much to be a bit more harsh on Irish people who don't speak Irish, and also to be more recognisable as a title to non-Irish speakers (who would likely at least still recognise Béarla from years of Irish lessons). "Gan Bearla" or "Without English" would have been an equally short title without resorting to a bilingual title.

chris_j 4y ago

Ditto the Welsh language (also a Celtic language spoken in the UK), where there traditionally weren't words for yes and no and where the words used instead depend upon tense, person and the verb being responded to.

messe 4y ago
Interesting to know! I suspected that might be the case, but didn't include it as I'm not all that familiar with the Brittonic languages.
DFHippie 4y ago
> depend upon tense, person and the verb being responded to Or the structure of the sentence. -- Dych chi'n dwp? -- Ydw. (-- Are you stupid? -- Yes.) [verb initial] -- Athro wyt ti? -- Ie. (-- Are you a teacher? -- Yes.) [noun initial]

elil17 4y ago

This language is different - it lacks the concept of negation all together. There's no way to negate a verb in this language.

messe 4y ago
Yes, I pointed that out in the comment you responded to.
macleginn 4y ago
Of course there is, there are negative suffixes for that, see a grammatical overview here: https://escholarship.org/uc/item/83v8d1wv https://escholarship.org/uc/item/83v8d1wv

youngNed 4y ago

> take note British Broadcasting Corporation https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize <-- Gàidhlig / Gaeilge / Cymraeg language options available Gàidhlig - https://www.bbc.co.uk/alba https://www.bbc.co.uk/alba <-- a tv channel - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_nan_gaidheal https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/live:bbc_radio_nan_gaidhea... <-- a radio channel - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p09xzjpm https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p09xzjpm - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/p09xwbsz https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/p09xwbsz - https://speakgaelic.scot/ https://speakgaelic.scot/ Gaeilge - https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/p084p79m https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/group/p084p79m <-- not a dedicated channel like Gàidhlig but regular TV programming - https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/subjects/zqtw7ty https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/subjects/zqtw7ty - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cpvp https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007cpvp - https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00cmsk6 https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00cmsk6 I mean, thats just a very quick look, yes Gàidhlig is better served than Gaeilge but my feeling is that those looking for Gaeilge resources are probably looking elsewhere ;-)

nailer 4y ago
The point was that the BBC writer of this article should already be aware of Gaelic languages.
- youngNed 4y ago
  > The point was that the BBC writer of this article should already be aware of Gaelic languages. Ah yes, i see that now, TY for pointing that out (i would imagine that the writer is not a 'BBC writer' but a freelancer, but yes, i see the point

nailer 4y ago

Dad spoke Irish at home (Galway) and uses Hibernian E English. “Are you posting on Hacker News?” “I am.” Easy.

eloisius 4y ago

Mandarin also does not have direct equivalents of ‘yes’ and ‘no’. There is a negator word 不 bù, but just answering 「不」 wouldn’t make sense. You answer a question with the verb that was asked. ‘Do you like coffee?’ ‘Like!’ or ‘不like‘. It doesn’t feel any different or make me experience any sort of mental contortion to use this pattern to convey the exact same information I’d convey in English. I used to really like these pop linguistics kind of articles about exotic languages without tenses or plurals or what have you. It made my imagination churn to think about how it might influence your conception of the world if you expressed time in terms of length, size, or quantity. I remember a RadioLab show about the ancient Greeks having no word for blue, and that as a result they couldn’t perceive it. I’ve since learned that this all stems from a theory called linguistic relativism, that the language we use constructs our worldview. I’m much less excited in this kind of idea since learning mandarin. I express the exact same thoughts and ideas I have in English, even if I express them without syntactical tenses, plurals, or whatever. Feels the same.

Tainnor 4y ago
> linguistic relativism is a really hot button issue in linguistics, because it obviously correlates with certain ideological worldviews one way or another. If you actually look at the data... it's complicated. In my view, neither the hardcore relativists nor the hardcore universalists are right. Probably there is some symbiotic relationship between the concepts we express in language and the saliency of certain distinctions in our habitual cognition. IOW, it's highly unlikely that the Ancient Greeks didn't perceive the colour blue (much less so that this was caused by their language), but it is possible that the distinction between the colour blue and certain other colours was not seen as as significant as other distinctions (e.g. saturation, brightness). But all this theory ultimately stems from this one expression in Homer about the "wine-red sea" and one can only speculate. If you want a good pop-sci overview of the situation, though still written by a linguist, try Guy Deutscher's "Through the Looking Glass". That said, he does come down a bit more on the pro-relativism side, so you may also want to read the counterarguments in John McWhorther's "The Language Hoax", which I haven't read though.
- Ichthypresbyter 4y ago