26 ms·

I don't even care much about mustard or live in France (though I am French) and I knew it just from reading French news months ago. But I've heard so much disi

I don't even care much about mustard or live in France (though I am French) and I knew it just from reading French news months ago. But I've heard so much disinformation in the last weeks when I was back at home with my family, many aging people (not especially lacking education, and of various social status but just "normal" people) who seem to get most of their information from random posts on Facebook, that I've lost any remaining trust in democracy (or at least direct democracy as many people advocate today) as a viable system for the coming years. Democracy needs a well-informed population making informed decisions, but what I see is the total opposite. If these people (who make up the majority of the population in our aging society) were to take decisions themselves, we would likely ally with Russia to finish the war against the "maybe-not-as-bad-but-still-very-bad" Ukrainians to restore mustard production and make gas flow again since there is no exceptional drought or any climate change at all, since summer last year was not so warm. Or some other nonsense. Sorry for the rant, but my reflections were actually triggered by the comments I heard back then regarding the mustard shortage. I had never realised how misinformed people were.

kergonath 4y ago
My impression as well. I am not too hopeful for the future.
dorfsmay 4y ago
Direct democracy would allow to discuss and debate ideas for their own sake rather than choosing one of a very few camps. A person could be pro-guns and pro-vaccination without needing to identify with a party, their people, etc... Disinformation will still exist (see brexit!),it might even be worse, but people will be able to point to it without being called a plant for the other side. The problem with current systems, representative democracy, especially with non-proportional voting systems, is that getting elected becomes the only goal, and supporting extreme views is one of the strategy, which has been pushing parties, from all sides, towards extremes. There is a self-feeding vicious circle as soon as one party supports extreme views, it reinforces the opposite party support for the party over ideas, and that now affects the first party etc... Being informed is like driving, every single person thinks they are better informed than the average! If you don't believe in democracy, can you please tell us what system is better? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#Driving_ability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#Driving_a... Experiences with "sortition" has shown that a group of "average people" tend to make better decisions for the group then a few supposedly "elite". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
- talideon 4y ago
  I think that the main benefit of sortition is that you end up with a set of people without any need to get re-elected, and that it's this that lends them the ability to make better decisions because their careers don't depend on it. Here in Ireland, we've had a number of Citizens' Assembly meetings going back just shy of a decade (if you include the 2012 Constitutional Convention, which was effectively the first one in all but name) that have been tremendously productive and have lead to a lot of positive change that would never have happened if it were left purely to professional politicians. You might find it worth a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland)
- themadturk 4y ago
  > If you don't believe in democracy, can you please tell us what system is better? Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean there's a better alternative. It simply means there may not be an alternative to believe in.
- seszett 4y ago
  > If you don't believe in democracy, can you please tell us what system is better? None that I know of, that is the real tragedy. On the illusion of superiority, I'm well aware of that but do not forget that it does not mean that some people are not actually better or worse (at information, driving, cooking or anything) than the others. Some abilities can actually be evaluated, for example there is such a thing as truth, so even though one person can be bad at evaluating themselves, it is absolutely possible to recognise misinformation in others.
  - dorfsmay 4y ago
    > it is absolutely possible to recognise misinformation in others. And this needs to be part of the education, part of the direct democracy. Keep in mind that in many situations there isn't a single truth, compromises need to be made, different implementations of a system that should work in theory needs to be tested etc... The belief in a single great system has lead to many bad societies.

kergonath 4y ago

My impression as well. I am not too hopeful for the future.

dorfsmay 4y ago

Direct democracy would allow to discuss and debate ideas for their own sake rather than choosing one of a very few camps. A person could be pro-guns and pro-vaccination without needing to identify with a party, their people, etc... Disinformation will still exist (see brexit!),it might even be worse, but people will be able to point to it without being called a plant for the other side. The problem with current systems, representative democracy, especially with non-proportional voting systems, is that getting elected becomes the only goal, and supporting extreme views is one of the strategy, which has been pushing parties, from all sides, towards extremes. There is a self-feeding vicious circle as soon as one party supports extreme views, it reinforces the opposite party support for the party over ideas, and that now affects the first party etc... Being informed is like driving, every single person thinks they are better informed than the average! If you don't believe in democracy, can you please tell us what system is better? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#Driving_ability https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#Driving_a... Experiences with "sortition" has shown that a group of "average people" tend to make better decisions for the group then a few supposedly "elite". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition

talideon 4y ago
I think that the main benefit of sortition is that you end up with a set of people without any need to get re-elected, and that it's this that lends them the ability to make better decisions because their careers don't depend on it. Here in Ireland, we've had a number of Citizens' Assembly meetings going back just shy of a decade (if you include the 2012 Constitutional Convention, which was effectively the first one in all but name) that have been tremendously productive and have lead to a lot of positive change that would never have happened if it were left purely to professional politicians. You might find it worth a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens%27_Assembly_(Ireland)
themadturk 4y ago
> If you don't believe in democracy, can you please tell us what system is better? Just because you don't believe in something doesn't mean there's a better alternative. It simply means there may not be an alternative to believe in.
seszett 4y ago
> If you don't believe in democracy, can you please tell us what system is better? None that I know of, that is the real tragedy. On the illusion of superiority, I'm well aware of that but do not forget that it does not mean that some people are not actually better or worse (at information, driving, cooking or anything) than the others. Some abilities can actually be evaluated, for example there is such a thing as truth, so even though one person can be bad at evaluating themselves, it is absolutely possible to recognise misinformation in others.
- dorfsmay 4y ago
  > it is absolutely possible to recognise misinformation in others. And this needs to be part of the education, part of the direct democracy. Keep in mind that in many situations there isn't a single truth, compromises need to be made, different implementations of a system that should work in theory needs to be tested etc... The belief in a single great system has lead to many bad societies.