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Years ago I've read this about the state of the art knowledge on how human brain works: "We have no idea how human brain actually works, there are billions of

by dvh 4y ago

Years ago I've read this about the state of the art knowledge on how human brain works: "We have no idea how human brain actually works, there are billions of neurons. So instead we study brains of simpler organisms. Flatworm's brain has 52 neurons. We still have no idea how it works." Does this still hold true or did we moved forward since?

AnimaLibera 4y ago
"No idea" is a bit strong, we actually have some amount of knowledge on the workings of the human brain, see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51920832_Cognitive_Consilience_Primate_Non-Primary_Neuroanatomical_Circuits_Underlying_Cognition https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51920832_Cognitive_...
TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
As far as I know, we understand "wiring" of neurons, but we are probably missing "firmware" of neurons and that's the reason why real Flatworm is behaving differently from simulated Flatworm. It is not executing same program. We can also ask if neurons can actually be simulated with current silicon based computer technology or if different type of computer is needed - Computer supporting operations from quantum physics? Chemical based computer where decisions and calculations are done by folding proteins?
- bookofjoe 4y ago
  I recently read a long essay by Stephen Wolfram in which he repeatedly suggested liquid-based computation as one possible way forward from current solid 3D substrates.
- sushid 4y ago
  I realize I'm an uninformed layperson possibly spewing nonsense but is there any way we can scan the real flatworms' neural output as they dig, move, etc. and then labeling the data to train ML models?
- baybal2 4y ago
- feet 4y ago
  There is still circuitry that we don't fully understand, along with the role of glia in information processing and with mysteries surrounding the processing capabilities of synapses/receptors and neuronal oscillations. That's not even the half of it. There is so much in the way of biochemical pathways such as regulation of neurotransmitters and receptor and other protein trafficking and modification that the complexity is insanely difficult to comprehend. And I haven't even mentioned the neuroendocrine system.
sigmoid10 4y ago
The problem with the flatworm is that its brain can't do very much except move the body. There's no higher language and visual processing as in humans that you could compare the virtual brain against. So, if you want to actually verify the worm's brain in a simulation, you have to build the entire worm and simulate every aspect of it in a physically correct environment - ideally on a level of individual cells. This is a pretty hefty task, but the OpenWorm project is trying to do something like that: https://openworm.org/ https://openworm.org/
DoctorDabadedoo 4y ago
We have general understanding of how some specialized cells work but no idea on how higher level abstractions exist (e.g. how visual input is transformed into spacial structure of the environment and how that is mapped into semantic understanding of a scene).

by dvh 4y ago

AnimaLibera 4y ago

"No idea" is a bit strong, we actually have some amount of knowledge on the workings of the human brain, see https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51920832_Cognitive_Consilience_Primate_Non-Primary_Neuroanatomical_Circuits_Underlying_Cognition https://www.researchgate.net/publication/51920832_Cognitive_...

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago

As far as I know, we understand "wiring" of neurons, but we are probably missing "firmware" of neurons and that's the reason why real Flatworm is behaving differently from simulated Flatworm. It is not executing same program. We can also ask if neurons can actually be simulated with current silicon based computer technology or if different type of computer is needed - Computer supporting operations from quantum physics? Chemical based computer where decisions and calculations are done by folding proteins?

bookofjoe 4y ago
I recently read a long essay by Stephen Wolfram in which he repeatedly suggested liquid-based computation as one possible way forward from current solid 3D substrates.
sushid 4y ago
I realize I'm an uninformed layperson possibly spewing nonsense but is there any way we can scan the real flatworms' neural output as they dig, move, etc. and then labeling the data to train ML models?
baybal2 4y ago
feet 4y ago
There is still circuitry that we don't fully understand, along with the role of glia in information processing and with mysteries surrounding the processing capabilities of synapses/receptors and neuronal oscillations. That's not even the half of it. There is so much in the way of biochemical pathways such as regulation of neurotransmitters and receptor and other protein trafficking and modification that the complexity is insanely difficult to comprehend. And I haven't even mentioned the neuroendocrine system.

sigmoid10 4y ago

The problem with the flatworm is that its brain can't do very much except move the body. There's no higher language and visual processing as in humans that you could compare the virtual brain against. So, if you want to actually verify the worm's brain in a simulation, you have to build the entire worm and simulate every aspect of it in a physically correct environment - ideally on a level of individual cells. This is a pretty hefty task, but the OpenWorm project is trying to do something like that: https://openworm.org/ https://openworm.org/

DoctorDabadedoo 4y ago

We have general understanding of how some specialized cells work but no idea on how higher level abstractions exist (e.g. how visual input is transformed into spacial structure of the environment and how that is mapped into semantic understanding of a scene).