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You know, I would be with you, but: 1. The versatility of Rust means I can use it for truly "the full stack". E.g., in my current side project, I'm using rust

You know, I would be with you, but: 1. The versatility of Rust means I can use it for truly "the full stack". E.g., in my current side project, I'm using rust to do audio decoding, resampling, running a speech recognition model, the backend of the app, and the frontend! Though I haven't yet started on all of those components, I expect to get some major simplification in my code because of this. 2. The "modern and expressive" languages all have fatal flaws, _for me_. Swift has a poor cross platform story/community, Kotlins tooling is poor if you don't use intelliJ, ocaml has a reputation of poor documentation. I understand that not all of these things will bother people as much as they bother me, but they do bother me a lot. Tbh, I'm still on the lookout for a lang that is actually statically typed(no TS or python), has an expressive type system, a good cross platform story, good, non proprietary tooling, and is at a slightly higher abstraction level than Rust.

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Tainnor 4y ago
1. sounds like a project where Rust is indeed a good fit. As for 2, I'm very happy with Kotlin for the most part. I agree that there's no point in trying to use it without IntelliJ, but... IntelliJ is really good, and the community edition is free. Yes, the startup times can be slow and annoying, but what I get in return is IMHO worth it (even more so if you use Ultimate and frameworks like Spring). Also, command line tools for Kotlin are IMHO better than for Java, at least (e.g. ktlint). I agree that Swift outside of Apple software is a dead end. Given your constraints, though, why are you ruling out TS (I've never used it, but I heard good things)? And what about Haskell? Though, in all fairness, in your case you're probably comfortable enough with Rust's borrow checker that it doesn't slow you down that much anymore, so I understand why you'd continue using it. For someone who has never worked with it, it's a different story.
- davidatbu 4y ago
  > Why not IntelliJ? My (admittedly poor) excuse is that I really wanna keep using neovim (I really like the customizability) :D > Why not TS/Haskell? TS is amazingly expressive, and probably my choice after Rust for traditional full stack! But it's sometimes the case that the underlying dynamic nature of JS "leaks through" (especially when using third party libraries), and it does come with the rest of the JS baggage (undefined == null, no easy pattern matching, ..etc). Haskell? I just realized that, from reading the interwebs, I've had an unconscious bias against Haskell as a mostly academic language unfit for industry use cases except in very narrow niches, but I def should check it out and make up my own mind. > Though, in all fairness, in your case you're probably comfortable enough with Rust's borrow checker that it doesn't slow you down that much anymore. True. On the rare occasion that it does, I just use the "cop out" of doing `.clone()`. I hope to get better though!
  - Tainnor 4y ago
    > My (admittedly poor) excuse is that I really wanna keep using neovim (I really like the customizability) :D I used to be a big "vim for everything" person. Now, less so. I just use vim mode in my editor/IDE of choice, because what I'm really after is the superior text editing. Now, depending on the project and language, I'll use vim, vs code or IntelliJ. But I can see that if you're really into all the vim customisability, it's different...
    - davidatbu 4y ago
      Just wanna say thanks! This was a really educational thread for me!

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Tainnor 4y ago

1. sounds like a project where Rust is indeed a good fit. As for 2, I'm very happy with Kotlin for the most part. I agree that there's no point in trying to use it without IntelliJ, but... IntelliJ is really good, and the community edition is free. Yes, the startup times can be slow and annoying, but what I get in return is IMHO worth it (even more so if you use Ultimate and frameworks like Spring). Also, command line tools for Kotlin are IMHO better than for Java, at least (e.g. ktlint). I agree that Swift outside of Apple software is a dead end. Given your constraints, though, why are you ruling out TS (I've never used it, but I heard good things)? And what about Haskell? Though, in all fairness, in your case you're probably comfortable enough with Rust's borrow checker that it doesn't slow you down that much anymore, so I understand why you'd continue using it. For someone who has never worked with it, it's a different story.

davidatbu 4y ago
> Why not IntelliJ? My (admittedly poor) excuse is that I really wanna keep using neovim (I really like the customizability) :D > Why not TS/Haskell? TS is amazingly expressive, and probably my choice after Rust for traditional full stack! But it's sometimes the case that the underlying dynamic nature of JS "leaks through" (especially when using third party libraries), and it does come with the rest of the JS baggage (undefined == null, no easy pattern matching, ..etc). Haskell? I just realized that, from reading the interwebs, I've had an unconscious bias against Haskell as a mostly academic language unfit for industry use cases except in very narrow niches, but I def should check it out and make up my own mind. > Though, in all fairness, in your case you're probably comfortable enough with Rust's borrow checker that it doesn't slow you down that much anymore. True. On the rare occasion that it does, I just use the "cop out" of doing `.clone()`. I hope to get better though!
- Tainnor 4y ago
  > My (admittedly poor) excuse is that I really wanna keep using neovim (I really like the customizability) :D I used to be a big "vim for everything" person. Now, less so. I just use vim mode in my editor/IDE of choice, because what I'm really after is the superior text editing. Now, depending on the project and language, I'll use vim, vs code or IntelliJ. But I can see that if you're really into all the vim customisability, it's different...
  - davidatbu 4y ago
    Just wanna say thanks! This was a really educational thread for me!