4 ms·

On the other hand i’ve been vegan for over 10 years, i can squat 300lbs and I’m 190lbs at 10% bf at almost 50 years old. All this without supporting the most cr

On the other hand i’ve been vegan for over 10 years, i can squat 300lbs and I’m 190lbs at 10% bf at almost 50 years old. All this without supporting the most cruel and polluting industry. Who is right?

jononomo 4y ago
Yeah, the only way to make it work is to be an exercise nut. In order to get the nutrition your body needs from a vegan diet you will need to consume more calories than you would consume on a carnivore diet. So you need to exercise to burn these extra calories off and maintain that “fit vegan” look — although eventually it will catch up with you. As for “cruel and polluting”, that’s also a bigger problem with agriculture — because of the clear-cutting, the insecticides, the secondary effects of insecticides on birds, all the agricultural run-off, and so forth. You need to think more critically than “did this piece of food on my plate once have a face?” Just because you’re eating soybeans doesn’t mean you’re not killing animals — it is just indirect and even more ecologically devastating.
- jchoca 4y ago
  If we care about collateral damage done to animals due to plant farming, then we should still stop eating animals due to the efficiency loss in calories when converting plants to animal calories. 70% of soy is grown for animal feed, and so is something like 50% of corn. Don't tell me all cows just need to be grazing all the time. There just isn't enough land for that. Even assuming 100% of our calories aren't coming from meat. The carnivore diet simply isn't sustainable. Suggesting that's something the entire human race should be doing is lunacy. I'd wager all these people who feel good on the carnivore diet feel that way because they've stopped consuming processed carbs and other garbage. Meanwhile that diet and keto are associated with increase in all-cause mortality.
  - jononomo 4y ago
    We can't eat grass
    - neuralRiot 4y ago
      Yes we can and it is delicious (wheatgrass)
      - jononomo 4y ago
  - jononomo 4y ago
    You said "that diet and keto are associated with an increase in all-cause mortality" -- in fact, I believe the opposite to be the case. Check out The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz to learn more about nutrition science.
    - jchoca 4y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2...
      - jononomo 4y ago
        This is why I want to write my book called "The Carnivore Panacea" -- because there is so much disinformation out there on diet and many people are just slack-jawed when they hear that some study is associated with the Harvard School of Public Health. Let me assure you that they should be slack-jawed, but not at the rigor of the publication, but at the fact that anything from such an ideologically driven vegan clown show would be considered worthy of publication. Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEhPFIlH3U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEhPFIlH3U -- some of the wisest words ever spoken. Take them to heart -- and then pray.
    - neuralRiot 4y ago
      I would be inclined to believe thousands of proper scientific studies than a journalist lobbied by the meat and restaurant councils but that’s just me. http://www.weightymatters.ca/2015/09/saturated-fats-conflicts-of-interest.html?m=1 http://www.weightymatters.ca/2015/09/saturated-fats-conflict...
      - jononomo 4y ago
        Yeah, the vegans really hate her and are trying to discredit her -- but I don't take vegans seriously.
- lock-the-spock 4y ago
  I've been veggie for 10+ years without being an exercise nut and am in top health, rarely sick, best skin of my life, etc. I don't have any of the issues you mention, so I would take a guess that your previous diet was not a balanced one but largely empty carbohydrates, which leads to all the issues you mention. Now mine is anecdotal data, as is your one year experience. If you do want to give serious diet recommendations try at least a few others first - be it Mediterranean, Indian, vegan, traditional Filipino, ...I'd bet you will find that you can and do feel great with many of these as long as you drop the processed crap (essentially anything produced by PepsiCo, Kellogg's or the big fast food chains). As the other commenter points out, a pure meat diet is not sustainable at scale and you'll find plenty of hints that it isn't healthy (eg red meat associated with colon cancer). It requires huge feed input, produces vast amounts of suffering and has a huge climate impact. In other words: even if it were the best choice health-wise (which is rather unlikely as humans are evolved omnivores) it is still an immoral and selfish choice. P S.: No ketchup? Mayonaise? Marinade? It seems to be rather unlikely anyone is that purely meat-based...
  - jononomo 4y ago
    I've been thinking about diet for a lot longer than just a couple of years and in fact I have tried being a vegetarian. I also grew up in India, so I'm familiar with their diet. You say you've been "veggie" for 10+ years without being an exercise nut, but "veggie" is unclear to me -- were you vegetarian or were you vegan? There is obviously a massive difference between being vegetarian and being vegan because you can be a vegetarian and eat a 100% animal-based diet if you limit yourself to eggs and dairy, which I consider super-duper-nutritious animal-based foods. I think almost anyone could eat a dozen eggs a day and thrive. Eggs are a super-food.
    - lock-the-spock 4y ago
      I am vegetarian but try to stay on the vegan side whenever I can and avoid eggs quite diligently. But note the article you responded to is about both so the question is irrelevant. What strikes me however is that you very selectively respond to a few points, e.g. in my comment the most non-substantial one > As the other commenter points out, a pure meat diet is not sustainable at scale and you'll find plenty of hints that it isn't healthy (eg red meat associated with colon cancer). It requires huge feed input, produces vast amounts of suffering and has a huge climate impact. In other words: even if it were the best choice health-wise (which is rather unlikely as humans are evolved omnivores) it is still an immoral and selfish choice. Even the article quoted by the guardian points out the many higher mortality risks associated with meat eating over a vegetarian diet - so clearly a health choice is not in favour of meat and 100% not in favour of a meat only diet.
- neuralRiot 4y ago
  Veggie foods need more energy to be digested so the net calories are lower than the intake even being negative for some. Livestock is fed 80% of the global soy production, rainforests are burnt to plant soy for that purpose, meat production releases methane and its manure lagoons leech into groundwater and end up in the sea, 82% of the antibiotics produced are administered to livestock, many are feed food waste including wrapping (this is allowed) so it’s not surprising than more than 73% of the analyzed meat and dairy products contain microplastics. As of 2014 there was about 23 billion chickens and 1.5 billion cattle around the world to give you some perspective there’s less than 8 billion people in the world. So we need to be more objective on where is the real ecological disaster.
  - jononomo 4y ago
    Would you be happy eating meat if it was raised in an ethical and environmentally-sustainable way?
    - neuralRiot 4y ago
      There’s no ethical or “humane” way to kill a sentient being just for the pleasure of tasting its flesh. Is it more ethical to kill a free person than a slave?
      - jononomo 4y ago
        I think that's checkmate, I win!

jononomo 4y ago

Yeah, the only way to make it work is to be an exercise nut. In order to get the nutrition your body needs from a vegan diet you will need to consume more calories than you would consume on a carnivore diet. So you need to exercise to burn these extra calories off and maintain that “fit vegan” look — although eventually it will catch up with you. As for “cruel and polluting”, that’s also a bigger problem with agriculture — because of the clear-cutting, the insecticides, the secondary effects of insecticides on birds, all the agricultural run-off, and so forth. You need to think more critically than “did this piece of food on my plate once have a face?” Just because you’re eating soybeans doesn’t mean you’re not killing animals — it is just indirect and even more ecologically devastating.

jchoca 4y ago
If we care about collateral damage done to animals due to plant farming, then we should still stop eating animals due to the efficiency loss in calories when converting plants to animal calories. 70% of soy is grown for animal feed, and so is something like 50% of corn. Don't tell me all cows just need to be grazing all the time. There just isn't enough land for that. Even assuming 100% of our calories aren't coming from meat. The carnivore diet simply isn't sustainable. Suggesting that's something the entire human race should be doing is lunacy. I'd wager all these people who feel good on the carnivore diet feel that way because they've stopped consuming processed carbs and other garbage. Meanwhile that diet and keto are associated with increase in all-cause mortality.
- jononomo 4y ago
  We can't eat grass
  - neuralRiot 4y ago
    Yes we can and it is delicious (wheatgrass)
    - jononomo 4y ago
- jononomo 4y ago
  You said "that diet and keto are associated with an increase in all-cause mortality" -- in fact, I believe the opposite to be the case. Check out The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz to learn more about nutrition science.
  - jchoca 4y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2989112/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23372809/ https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2...
    - jononomo 4y ago
      This is why I want to write my book called "The Carnivore Panacea" -- because there is so much disinformation out there on diet and many people are just slack-jawed when they hear that some study is associated with the Harvard School of Public Health. Let me assure you that they should be slack-jawed, but not at the rigor of the publication, but at the fact that anything from such an ideologically driven vegan clown show would be considered worthy of publication. Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEhPFIlH3U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEhPFIlH3U -- some of the wisest words ever spoken. Take them to heart -- and then pray.
  - neuralRiot 4y ago
    I would be inclined to believe thousands of proper scientific studies than a journalist lobbied by the meat and restaurant councils but that’s just me. http://www.weightymatters.ca/2015/09/saturated-fats-conflicts-of-interest.html?m=1 http://www.weightymatters.ca/2015/09/saturated-fats-conflict...
    - jononomo 4y ago
      Yeah, the vegans really hate her and are trying to discredit her -- but I don't take vegans seriously.
lock-the-spock 4y ago
I've been veggie for 10+ years without being an exercise nut and am in top health, rarely sick, best skin of my life, etc. I don't have any of the issues you mention, so I would take a guess that your previous diet was not a balanced one but largely empty carbohydrates, which leads to all the issues you mention. Now mine is anecdotal data, as is your one year experience. If you do want to give serious diet recommendations try at least a few others first - be it Mediterranean, Indian, vegan, traditional Filipino, ...I'd bet you will find that you can and do feel great with many of these as long as you drop the processed crap (essentially anything produced by PepsiCo, Kellogg's or the big fast food chains). As the other commenter points out, a pure meat diet is not sustainable at scale and you'll find plenty of hints that it isn't healthy (eg red meat associated with colon cancer). It requires huge feed input, produces vast amounts of suffering and has a huge climate impact. In other words: even if it were the best choice health-wise (which is rather unlikely as humans are evolved omnivores) it is still an immoral and selfish choice. P S.: No ketchup? Mayonaise? Marinade? It seems to be rather unlikely anyone is that purely meat-based...
- jononomo 4y ago
  I've been thinking about diet for a lot longer than just a couple of years and in fact I have tried being a vegetarian. I also grew up in India, so I'm familiar with their diet. You say you've been "veggie" for 10+ years without being an exercise nut, but "veggie" is unclear to me -- were you vegetarian or were you vegan? There is obviously a massive difference between being vegetarian and being vegan because you can be a vegetarian and eat a 100% animal-based diet if you limit yourself to eggs and dairy, which I consider super-duper-nutritious animal-based foods. I think almost anyone could eat a dozen eggs a day and thrive. Eggs are a super-food.
  - lock-the-spock 4y ago
    I am vegetarian but try to stay on the vegan side whenever I can and avoid eggs quite diligently. But note the article you responded to is about both so the question is irrelevant. What strikes me however is that you very selectively respond to a few points, e.g. in my comment the most non-substantial one > As the other commenter points out, a pure meat diet is not sustainable at scale and you'll find plenty of hints that it isn't healthy (eg red meat associated with colon cancer). It requires huge feed input, produces vast amounts of suffering and has a huge climate impact. In other words: even if it were the best choice health-wise (which is rather unlikely as humans are evolved omnivores) it is still an immoral and selfish choice. Even the article quoted by the guardian points out the many higher mortality risks associated with meat eating over a vegetarian diet - so clearly a health choice is not in favour of meat and 100% not in favour of a meat only diet.
neuralRiot 4y ago
Veggie foods need more energy to be digested so the net calories are lower than the intake even being negative for some. Livestock is fed 80% of the global soy production, rainforests are burnt to plant soy for that purpose, meat production releases methane and its manure lagoons leech into groundwater and end up in the sea, 82% of the antibiotics produced are administered to livestock, many are feed food waste including wrapping (this is allowed) so it’s not surprising than more than 73% of the analyzed meat and dairy products contain microplastics. As of 2014 there was about 23 billion chickens and 1.5 billion cattle around the world to give you some perspective there’s less than 8 billion people in the world. So we need to be more objective on where is the real ecological disaster.
- jononomo 4y ago
  Would you be happy eating meat if it was raised in an ethical and environmentally-sustainable way?
  - neuralRiot 4y ago
    There’s no ethical or “humane” way to kill a sentient being just for the pleasure of tasting its flesh. Is it more ethical to kill a free person than a slave?
    - jononomo 4y ago
      I think that's checkmate, I win!