6 ms·

It appears incontrovertible that it is harder (but not impossible) to have a nutritionally complete diet without meat, and particularly without dairy either. I

It appears incontrovertible that it is harder (but not impossible) to have a nutritionally complete diet without meat, and particularly without dairy either. It appears also incontrovertible that the additional components required to complete such a diet are expensive to produce (in terms of energy and high quality arable land) and likely cannot be scaled to any significant proportion of the population.

spicymaki 4y ago
Vegetarian diets are not expensive even with meat/dairy being subsidized ($38B/year in US). Vegetarians need to make sure they exercise and consume high quality plant proteins: vegetables, nuts, legumes, beans and whole grains and keep a normal BMI. Meat eaters have the opposite issue: too much protein and fat leading to heart disease (#1), cancer (#2), stroke (#5) and diabetes (#8). Hip fractures do not even chart.
- jononomo 4y ago
  Almost everyone thinks this, but I don’t. I have come to believe that a person’s risk for heart disease, cancer, stroke, and high blood pressure will all be reduced by switching to a 100% red meat diet. If anyone actually cares, they can read The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz to learn about nutrition science.
  - spicymaki 4y ago
    There is a good reason why everyone thinks that. The evidence is overwhelming that consuming meat increases your chances of heart disease and stroke[1]. Nina Teicholz does not have any medical or nutrition science training or credentials[2]. Even if she did she would need to amass an extreme amount of evidence over long periods of time. Red meat is considered carcinogenic.[3][4] Red meat is directly associated with high blood pressure[5] Low fiber diets e.g. 100% red meat is associated with constipation, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), diverticulitis, heart disease and some cancers (including bowel)[6]. [1] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/eating-red-meat-daily-triples-heart-disease-related-chemical https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/eating-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Teicholz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Teicholz [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2121650/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2121650/ [4] https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2021/red-meat-colorectal-cancer-genetic-signature https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2021... [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658466/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658466/ [6] https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/fibre-in-food https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/fib...
- jononomo 4y ago
  - ziddoap 4y ago
    This is news to the medical establishment, have you published a paper? CDC, Mayo Clinic, NIH, etc. all claim that the exact cause of Type 2 diabetes is unknown, although it is known that lifestyle and genetics both play roles. While what you said might be partially related, it is most certainly not "entirely caused by eating excessive bread and sugar".
    - jononomo 4y ago
      This is not news to the medical establishment, although not everyone in the medical establishment is fully caught up on the news: https://reversingdiabetesmd.com/ https://reversingdiabetesmd.com/
      - ziddoap 4y ago
        Yeah, that definitely stacks up against the literally thousands of doctors in the establishments I mentioned, and the dozens to hundreds of peer-reviewed papers on the subject. Hard pass.
        jononomo 4y ago
        It was hundreds of years before doctors stopped using leaches...
        ziddoap 4y ago
        The standards and methodologies which led us away from using leeches are the same standards and methodologies that have led to the overwhelming conclusion by every reputable health organization that type 2 diabetes is not caused solely because you ate too much bread. That argument works in my favor, not yours.
- mixedCase 4y ago
  Protein and fat causing those issues is baloney. Metabolic heart disease is caused by small LDL particle size creating plaques , and a low carb diet fixes that. I'm not going to blame carbs on that one, but cutting them out does either directly or indirectly help. Nitrites and nitrates used for cured meats are the carcinogenic you have to worry about, not meat. It is a good thing to point out, not an argument against general meat consumption. No idea about stroke factors, won't comment on that. The mere suggestion that something with the glycemic index of meat causes diabetes is laughable.
neuralRiot 4y ago
Perhaps if 80% of edible crops weren’t feed to livestock and subsidies were removed from animal agriculture then those will be no-issues. I find appealing that anyone on HN being a progressive and open-minded public with an objective opinion would be promoting an environmentally destructive industry like the animal AG.
- somewhereoutth 4y ago
  Most animal feed is in fact not edible - that is my point, animals are very good at converting stuff you can grow anywhere (like grass), stuff that wouldn't give you much nutrition beyond carbs (wheat?), and stuff you wouldn't like to eat anyway (like left overs from the brewing industry). Replacing animals in our food chain without mass starvation/malnutrition would appear to be impossible.
  - neuralRiot 4y ago
    Animals are not “magic machines” the protein on their bodies comes from the food they eat. The only magic machines are plants that turn water, minerals and light into food. http://ussoy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/consumption-1.jpg http://ussoy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/consumption-1.jp...
    - jononomo 4y ago
      What's your point? Humans can't eat grass, but cows can eat grass and then human's can eat cows. Think of a pasture as a "lab" and a cow as "lab-grown meat" if it makes you feel better.
      - neuralRiot 4y ago
        Honestly, do you think that 2 billion cows can be fed grass only? There’s no viable way to keep meat consumption at the current levels feeding them grass.
        4y ago

spicymaki 4y ago

Vegetarian diets are not expensive even with meat/dairy being subsidized ($38B/year in US). Vegetarians need to make sure they exercise and consume high quality plant proteins: vegetables, nuts, legumes, beans and whole grains and keep a normal BMI. Meat eaters have the opposite issue: too much protein and fat leading to heart disease (#1), cancer (#2), stroke (#5) and diabetes (#8). Hip fractures do not even chart.

jononomo 4y ago
Almost everyone thinks this, but I don’t. I have come to believe that a person’s risk for heart disease, cancer, stroke, and high blood pressure will all be reduced by switching to a 100% red meat diet. If anyone actually cares, they can read The Big Fat Surprise by Nina Teicholz to learn about nutrition science.
- spicymaki 4y ago
  There is a good reason why everyone thinks that. The evidence is overwhelming that consuming meat increases your chances of heart disease and stroke[1]. Nina Teicholz does not have any medical or nutrition science training or credentials[2]. Even if she did she would need to amass an extreme amount of evidence over long periods of time. Red meat is considered carcinogenic.[3][4] Red meat is directly associated with high blood pressure[5] Low fiber diets e.g. 100% red meat is associated with constipation, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), diverticulitis, heart disease and some cancers (including bowel)[6]. [1] https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/eating-red-meat-daily-triples-heart-disease-related-chemical https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/eating-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Teicholz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nina_Teicholz [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2121650/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2121650/ [4] https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2021/red-meat-colorectal-cancer-genetic-signature https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2021... [5] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658466/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2658466/ [6] https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/fibre-in-food https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/fib...
jononomo 4y ago
- ziddoap 4y ago
  This is news to the medical establishment, have you published a paper? CDC, Mayo Clinic, NIH, etc. all claim that the exact cause of Type 2 diabetes is unknown, although it is known that lifestyle and genetics both play roles. While what you said might be partially related, it is most certainly not "entirely caused by eating excessive bread and sugar".
  - jononomo 4y ago
    This is not news to the medical establishment, although not everyone in the medical establishment is fully caught up on the news: https://reversingdiabetesmd.com/ https://reversingdiabetesmd.com/
    - ziddoap 4y ago
      Yeah, that definitely stacks up against the literally thousands of doctors in the establishments I mentioned, and the dozens to hundreds of peer-reviewed papers on the subject. Hard pass.
      - jononomo 4y ago
        It was hundreds of years before doctors stopped using leaches...
        ziddoap 4y ago
        The standards and methodologies which led us away from using leeches are the same standards and methodologies that have led to the overwhelming conclusion by every reputable health organization that type 2 diabetes is not caused solely because you ate too much bread. That argument works in my favor, not yours.
mixedCase 4y ago
Protein and fat causing those issues is baloney. Metabolic heart disease is caused by small LDL particle size creating plaques , and a low carb diet fixes that. I'm not going to blame carbs on that one, but cutting them out does either directly or indirectly help. Nitrites and nitrates used for cured meats are the carcinogenic you have to worry about, not meat. It is a good thing to point out, not an argument against general meat consumption. No idea about stroke factors, won't comment on that. The mere suggestion that something with the glycemic index of meat causes diabetes is laughable.

neuralRiot 4y ago

Perhaps if 80% of edible crops weren’t feed to livestock and subsidies were removed from animal agriculture then those will be no-issues. I find appealing that anyone on HN being a progressive and open-minded public with an objective opinion would be promoting an environmentally destructive industry like the animal AG.

somewhereoutth 4y ago
Most animal feed is in fact not edible - that is my point, animals are very good at converting stuff you can grow anywhere (like grass), stuff that wouldn't give you much nutrition beyond carbs (wheat?), and stuff you wouldn't like to eat anyway (like left overs from the brewing industry). Replacing animals in our food chain without mass starvation/malnutrition would appear to be impossible.
- neuralRiot 4y ago
  Animals are not “magic machines” the protein on their bodies comes from the food they eat. The only magic machines are plants that turn water, minerals and light into food. http://ussoy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/consumption-1.jpg http://ussoy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/consumption-1.jp...
  - jononomo 4y ago
    What's your point? Humans can't eat grass, but cows can eat grass and then human's can eat cows. Think of a pasture as a "lab" and a cow as "lab-grown meat" if it makes you feel better.
    - neuralRiot 4y ago
      Honestly, do you think that 2 billion cows can be fed grass only? There’s no viable way to keep meat consumption at the current levels feeding them grass.
      - 4y ago