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Objective-C, maybe. Not C++ or Java, which trace their lineage to Simula, which Smalltalk also cribbed from. But it is hard to see Objective-C as important, lim

by ncmncm 4y ago

Objective-C, maybe. Not C++ or Java, which trace their lineage to Simula, which Smalltalk also cribbed from. But it is hard to see Objective-C as important, limited as it is to a walled garden. It also once seemed like "object-oriented" would be important. Now it is recognized as a niche technique.

linguae 4y ago
There is a GCC Objective-C compiler that has existed for a long time, and a large portion of the Cocoa API is available in GNUstep, an open source implementation of the OpenStep API. It’s long been possible to use Objective-C outside of NeXT, Mac, and iOS development, though admittedly Objective-C hasn’t had the same level of adoption as contemporary object-oriented languages such as C++ and Java.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  I have never heard of Objective-C actually being used in anything I know about, outside the walled garden.
  - rileyphone 4y ago
    Ever heard of the World Wide Web? https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Created on a NeXT workstation, the Objective-C implementation was never ported to other platforms, Mosaic was implemented in C. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser)
      - Apocryphon 4y ago
        Similarly, Doom was created on a NeXT workstation in C, but its editing tools were written in Objective-C https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Development_of_Doom https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Development_of_Doom
      - rileyphone 4y ago
        Still, the Web might have never existed without Objective-C, which is moreso my point. From [0]: > A second phase would almost certainly involve some programming in order to set up a real system at CERN on many machines. An important part of this, discussed below, is the integration of a hypertext system with existing data, so as to provide a universal system, and to achieve critical usefulness at an early stage. > (... and yes, this would provide an excellent project with which to try our new object oriented programming techniques!) TBL March 1989, May 1990 Objective-C had a wonderfully pragmatic approach to OOP, though it remained tied to the systems it was on because of the standard object libraries that enabled it. NeXT promotional materials really liked to showcase its suitedness to rapid application development, whether Jobs himself doing so [1] or in a staged competition with Sun [2] [0] https://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html https://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html [1] https://youtu.be/rf5o5liZxnA?t=1391 https://youtu.be/rf5o5liZxnA?t=1391 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg
        pjmlp 4y ago
        The Web would have existed in another form. Hypertext systems preceded it by decades. Objective-C has great as it might have been, didn't brought much to the table to those used to the Windows or Mac IDEs for GUI development. The Next vs Sun marketing video wouldn't have been the same when placed against HyperCard, Visual Basic, Delphi or C++ Builder. NeXT was almost bankrupt when they were pivoting into OpenStep, and not only was Java born out of Objective-C influences at Sun during the OpenStep days, Java EE was born from the ashes of an Objective-C framework for distributed computing at Sun.
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    Mac software aren't inherently walled garden.
dunham 4y ago
According to one of the developers of Java, Java was also inspired by Objective-C: https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html
- pjmlp 4y ago
  Yes, Java is basically the semantics of Smalltalk/Objective-C, with the syntax of C++. The way dynamic code works (classloader, reflection), methods being virtual by default, interfaces, the JAR archives (think NeXT app bundles),... all that is Smalltalk/Objective-C influence.
Apocryphon 4y ago
Object-oriented programming has been important for like three decades now, for better or for worse, and if it's so "niche" now, what paradigm has replaced it?
- ncmncm 4y ago
  The world (well, most of it) has recognized that "paradigms" are themselves niche. Of mainstream languages, only Java still tries to shoehorn all programs into its "paradigm".
  - Apocryphon 4y ago
    What world are you posting from exactly
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      The one where C++, C, Java, JavaScript, Python, and Fortran are the mainstream, non-niche languages. Several of those have some support for an OO style, but only Java tries to force it on you.

by ncmncm 4y ago

linguae 4y ago

There is a GCC Objective-C compiler that has existed for a long time, and a large portion of the Cocoa API is available in GNUstep, an open source implementation of the OpenStep API. It’s long been possible to use Objective-C outside of NeXT, Mac, and iOS development, though admittedly Objective-C hasn’t had the same level of adoption as contemporary object-oriented languages such as C++ and Java.

ncmncm 4y ago
I have never heard of Objective-C actually being used in anything I know about, outside the walled garden.
- rileyphone 4y ago
  Ever heard of the World Wide Web? https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb https://github.com/cynthia/WorldWideWeb
  - pjmlp 4y ago
    Created on a NeXT workstation, the Objective-C implementation was never ported to other platforms, Mosaic was implemented in C. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_(web_browser)
    - Apocryphon 4y ago
      Similarly, Doom was created on a NeXT workstation in C, but its editing tools were written in Objective-C https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Development_of_Doom https://doomwiki.org/wiki/Development_of_Doom
    - rileyphone 4y ago
      Still, the Web might have never existed without Objective-C, which is moreso my point. From [0]: > A second phase would almost certainly involve some programming in order to set up a real system at CERN on many machines. An important part of this, discussed below, is the integration of a hypertext system with existing data, so as to provide a universal system, and to achieve critical usefulness at an early stage. > (... and yes, this would provide an excellent project with which to try our new object oriented programming techniques!) TBL March 1989, May 1990 Objective-C had a wonderfully pragmatic approach to OOP, though it remained tied to the systems it was on because of the standard object libraries that enabled it. NeXT promotional materials really liked to showcase its suitedness to rapid application development, whether Jobs himself doing so [1] or in a staged competition with Sun [2] [0] https://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html https://www.w3.org/History/1989/proposal.html [1] https://youtu.be/rf5o5liZxnA?t=1391 https://youtu.be/rf5o5liZxnA?t=1391 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGhfB-NICzg
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        The Web would have existed in another form. Hypertext systems preceded it by decades. Objective-C has great as it might have been, didn't brought much to the table to those used to the Windows or Mac IDEs for GUI development. The Next vs Sun marketing video wouldn't have been the same when placed against HyperCard, Visual Basic, Delphi or C++ Builder. NeXT was almost bankrupt when they were pivoting into OpenStep, and not only was Java born out of Objective-C influences at Sun during the OpenStep days, Java EE was born from the ashes of an Objective-C framework for distributed computing at Sun.
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  Mac software aren't inherently walled garden.

dunham 4y ago

According to one of the developers of Java, Java was also inspired by Objective-C: https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html https://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html

pjmlp 4y ago
Yes, Java is basically the semantics of Smalltalk/Objective-C, with the syntax of C++. The way dynamic code works (classloader, reflection), methods being virtual by default, interfaces, the JAR archives (think NeXT app bundles),... all that is Smalltalk/Objective-C influence.

Apocryphon 4y ago

Object-oriented programming has been important for like three decades now, for better or for worse, and if it's so "niche" now, what paradigm has replaced it?

ncmncm 4y ago
The world (well, most of it) has recognized that "paradigms" are themselves niche. Of mainstream languages, only Java still tries to shoehorn all programs into its "paradigm".
- Apocryphon 4y ago
  What world are you posting from exactly
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    The one where C++, C, Java, JavaScript, Python, and Fortran are the mainstream, non-niche languages. Several of those have some support for an OO style, but only Java tries to force it on you.