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Even if it doesn't have all that, if you finance most vehicles they will install a poorly hidden cell tracker that usually draws power from the OBD2 port. It i

Even if it doesn't have all that, if you finance most vehicles they will install a poorly hidden cell tracker that usually draws power from the OBD2 port. It is legally problematic to remove until you switch financing... In addition, if tracking bothers you, your tire pressure sensors all have trackable (if there are enough sensors around a city) IDs, and if bluetooth is on, and it probably is, that as well...aside from your cell phone... My next (secondary) vehicle will 100% be a dumb vehicle from the 90s or earlier.

kkielhofner 4y ago
There’s also in-vehicle Wi-Fi. A while back I set up a Ubiquity Wi-Fi system for a friend who lives near a fairly high-traffic street. The default Ubiquity scan interval for spectrum and Wi-Fi network awareness was enough to map schedules for a shockingly high number of people driving by. I imagine something custom built for this purpose would be significantly more, umm, “effective” for this purpose.
ensignavenger 4y ago
What laws prevent you from removing a gps tracker from your vehicle? It may be a civil agreement between you and the lender?
quintushoratius 4y ago
> If you finance most vehicles they will install a poorly hidden cell tracker that usually draws power from the OBD2 port. What kind of janky banks are you working with? My spouse and I financed a couple of cars recently, one new and one slightly used, and did not have anything of the sort. Different manufacturers, different banks, different dealerships.
- ilikenwf 4y ago
  The dealership itself, a mainline GM dealer owned by Berkshire-Hathaway.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  They don't disclose when they install those devices generally. If they do, it's buried under 100s of pages of documents.
  - pdabbadabba 4y ago
    But how does this actually happen? Who puts the tracker on there and when? Sure, if you finance through the dealership, then dealership personnel could stick it in there before you drive away, I guess. It plenty of people finance through third parties. Surely Wells Fargo, for example, doesn’t send an agent down to stick a tracker in your car while you’re sleeping or at work…
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      The dealership has an employee who installs it, usually when the vehicle is undergoing what manufacturers call "pre purchase inspection".
jorvi 4y ago
> It is legally problematic to remove until you switch financing... Is it? Unless their financing T&C specifically tell you you are bound to let them track you, can't you just pop it out and tell them to pound sand?
- metric10 4y ago
  I've removed one and never heard anything. I doubt they even check if it's functioning unless they are attempting to repossess the car. As I recall, some modules have the ability to unlock and start the car as well (I think; it was years ago when I found one and researched it...)
bscphil 4y ago
> if you finance most vehicles they will install a poorly hidden cell tracker that usually draws power from the OBD2 port. I have never heard of this. Do you have any reference to learn more? Who exactly does this installing - someone hired by the bank? The dealer? If I pay cash for a vehicle, does that guarantee that the dealer won't install a tracker? How can I find this out?
- neuralRiot 4y ago
  Usually it is installed by some “tech” at the dealer, installing on the OBD port is unusual as it is where people will look first, it can be installed anywhre there’s constant 12v power, newer trackers are very small (the size of a gum pack) and have their own battery. Tracking after the payment is done is not usual as the dealer has to pay a fee for the network but the tracker stays there and i guess it can be re-activated.
- metric10 4y ago
  We leased a new Jeep Cherokee from a Miami dealership some time ago. It was a company car and was financed. Some months later we noticed the odometer was blinking constantly so we took it in for service to a different dealer. The tech pulled it out and told us about it. He said they didn't do it at that dealership, but some do it. It was just hanging off the OBD2 port, so if you're concerned about it when leasing or buying a new car then just make sure to check that port. I still have it in a box somewhere. I'm not sure if there's anything interesting that can be done with it... [edit: minor grammar]
- judge2020 4y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/business/dealbook/gps-devices-car-loans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/business/dealbook/gps-dev... If you pay cash, you probably can't be 100% sure there isn't one, but it would still be illegal for them to do this. Otherwise, when you loan/lease the car, it's legal for the dealer to put a tracker on 'their own car'/do it as required by the bank ('their own car' or a car they have a 100% value lien on, for those of you in lien states). Via the article, the FTC was supposedly probing these to determine 'if the availability of car loans outweighed the privacy issues', but nothing came of it (which is why i'm not hopeful for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32426633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32426633 ).
kurtoid 4y ago
TIL tire pressure sensors are wireless. I always wondered how they were "wired"
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  It's even better. To avoid having to enter the serial numbers of them into your car, your car just listens to all the TPM sensors chirping around it. After enough time, your car finds four (or more) that follow you around and decides those are yours.

kkielhofner 4y ago

There’s also in-vehicle Wi-Fi. A while back I set up a Ubiquity Wi-Fi system for a friend who lives near a fairly high-traffic street. The default Ubiquity scan interval for spectrum and Wi-Fi network awareness was enough to map schedules for a shockingly high number of people driving by. I imagine something custom built for this purpose would be significantly more, umm, “effective” for this purpose.

ensignavenger 4y ago

What laws prevent you from removing a gps tracker from your vehicle? It may be a civil agreement between you and the lender?

quintushoratius 4y ago

> If you finance most vehicles they will install a poorly hidden cell tracker that usually draws power from the OBD2 port. What kind of janky banks are you working with? My spouse and I financed a couple of cars recently, one new and one slightly used, and did not have anything of the sort. Different manufacturers, different banks, different dealerships.

ilikenwf 4y ago
The dealership itself, a mainline GM dealer owned by Berkshire-Hathaway.
sidewndr46 4y ago
They don't disclose when they install those devices generally. If they do, it's buried under 100s of pages of documents.
- pdabbadabba 4y ago
  But how does this actually happen? Who puts the tracker on there and when? Sure, if you finance through the dealership, then dealership personnel could stick it in there before you drive away, I guess. It plenty of people finance through third parties. Surely Wells Fargo, for example, doesn’t send an agent down to stick a tracker in your car while you’re sleeping or at work…
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    The dealership has an employee who installs it, usually when the vehicle is undergoing what manufacturers call "pre purchase inspection".

jorvi 4y ago

> It is legally problematic to remove until you switch financing... Is it? Unless their financing T&C specifically tell you you are bound to let them track you, can't you just pop it out and tell them to pound sand?

metric10 4y ago
I've removed one and never heard anything. I doubt they even check if it's functioning unless they are attempting to repossess the car. As I recall, some modules have the ability to unlock and start the car as well (I think; it was years ago when I found one and researched it...)

bscphil 4y ago

> if you finance most vehicles they will install a poorly hidden cell tracker that usually draws power from the OBD2 port. I have never heard of this. Do you have any reference to learn more? Who exactly does this installing - someone hired by the bank? The dealer? If I pay cash for a vehicle, does that guarantee that the dealer won't install a tracker? How can I find this out?

neuralRiot 4y ago
Usually it is installed by some “tech” at the dealer, installing on the OBD port is unusual as it is where people will look first, it can be installed anywhre there’s constant 12v power, newer trackers are very small (the size of a gum pack) and have their own battery. Tracking after the payment is done is not usual as the dealer has to pay a fee for the network but the tracker stays there and i guess it can be re-activated.
metric10 4y ago
We leased a new Jeep Cherokee from a Miami dealership some time ago. It was a company car and was financed. Some months later we noticed the odometer was blinking constantly so we took it in for service to a different dealer. The tech pulled it out and told us about it. He said they didn't do it at that dealership, but some do it. It was just hanging off the OBD2 port, so if you're concerned about it when leasing or buying a new car then just make sure to check that port. I still have it in a box somewhere. I'm not sure if there's anything interesting that can be done with it... [edit: minor grammar]
judge2020 4y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/business/dealbook/gps-devices-car-loans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/business/dealbook/gps-dev... If you pay cash, you probably can't be 100% sure there isn't one, but it would still be illegal for them to do this. Otherwise, when you loan/lease the car, it's legal for the dealer to put a tracker on 'their own car'/do it as required by the bank ('their own car' or a car they have a 100% value lien on, for those of you in lien states). Via the article, the FTC was supposedly probing these to determine 'if the availability of car loans outweighed the privacy issues', but nothing came of it (which is why i'm not hopeful for https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32426633 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32426633 ).

kurtoid 4y ago

TIL tire pressure sensors are wireless. I always wondered how they were "wired"

colejohnson66 4y ago
It's even better. To avoid having to enter the serial numbers of them into your car, your car just listens to all the TPM sensors chirping around it. After enough time, your car finds four (or more) that follow you around and decides those are yours.