4 ms·

We need to stop calling this a "caste-bias problem" and call it what it is: racism. Just because they're not a distinct ethnicity doesn't mean it's not racism,

by pc86 4y ago

We need to stop calling this a "caste-bias problem" and call it what it is: racism. Just because they're not a distinct ethnicity doesn't mean it's not racism, and the people looking down on others because of their caste are no different than the white guy yelling the n word in traffic. Neither should be tolerated, and if you find yourself working with one, they should be fired. It is antithetical to an open society.

pictureofabear 4y ago
caste-bias is a subset of racism.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
It can all be abstracted into “tribalism”.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  When someone can look at a pair of parents and tell you their kid’s “tribe,” the difference between tribe and race becomes purely semantic.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Yes, that is my point. Everyone is constantly evaluating everyone else and placing them in different tribes with different priorities. All the way from parent child relationships to neighbors to country level and even global level. Skin color, wealth, relatives, philosophies, habits, and infinitely more characteristics are used to determine who will and will not benefit you or not benefit you and it can change with every scenario. I agree with comparing caste-ism to racism, and very well may be the same. It is very similar in that they classify someone as part of a tribe because of their ancestors. But it is also quite similar to classifying someone based on their accent, which side of town they grew up in, or what university they attended, because they all end up being a function of who one’s ancestors are also.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > it is also quite similar to classifying someone based on their accent, which side of town they grew up in, or what university they attended, because they all end up being a function of who one’s ancestors are This is fair. The salient difference for me emerges in immigration. The fact that someone can look at an Indian American speaking American English, dressed in Western garb and educated in America and determine something about their parents' caste puts caste closer to race than e.g. wealth, religion or sexual orientation.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        I find "race" is not very useful as a concept once you start getting into the weeds. When I try to get to the root cause of why people want to categorize others, I often find it is about utility. Surely, it can be evil too such as someone wanting to punish others or getting a feeling of superiority from viewing others as being below. But it can also be about going with who you think will have your back when the situation gets hairy (which can include covering up your misdeeds), or simply someone who will help you. In that sense, an Indian American speaking American English, dressed in Western garb and educated in America who is likelier to have many cousins and family who are engineers/doctors/lawyers/business owners could be more useful than a visually identical Indian American who is not as likely to have that family background. The compounding effects of networking really hamper efforts to increase equality of opportunity.
  - inglor_cz 4y ago
    Not really, there are a lot of non-racially based "tribes" out there that can be told apart by clothing and other attributes. Quakers, Muslims, hippies, the Amish etc. come to mind.
cuteboy19 4y ago
I agree, if only for the purpose of avoiding ignorant comments like "America has a caste system too, rich vs poor" which we often find in these discussions
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  To be fair, (Brahmin) Communist Chief Minister of West Bengal used to say the same thing about Bengal.
encryptluks2 4y ago
Isn't racism based on race or ethnic groups. Caste bias can be like a white person judging another white person because one grew up in the Bronx while the other is from New Jersey. That is not racism but classism maybe mixed in with some religious discrimination.
- trashtester 4y ago
  I disagree. Normal classism can be overcome to a much greater degree than Caste. An upper class person may have 4 working class grandparents. A person with 4 lower caste grandparents will never be an upper caste, just like someone with 4 black grandparents will not be seen as white. The caste system has been enforced strictly enough to even have an imprint on the DNA: https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/Caste-system-has-left-imprints-on-genes-study/article14022623.ece https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/Caste-system-has-l... In other words, casts differ from each other in ways that are similar to how Jews differ from other Europeans. And I would definitely label anti-Semitism as racism, even if it is usually difficult to identify a Jew by appearance.
  - dhosek 4y ago
    Isabel Wilkerson’s book Caste has a really good overview of the caste system in India and how it’s very distinct from class issues.
- sreevisakh 4y ago
  You're missing the cultural insight needed to understand caste. For example, two people from New Jersey may tolerate each other even if one of their ancestors are from other places. Castes on the other hand, carries on from generation to generation. It's extremely hard to get rid of the caste label you're born with. Another factor is the level of discrimination involved. Caste is widely used to judge academic and professional proficiencies. It's extremely hard for lower caste people to rise up even if they work hard. They get denied and often demotivated in public. It gets much worse within India. Lower caste people are kept away from good residential areas, many commercial establishments and even village wells.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by pc86 4y ago

pictureofabear 4y ago

caste-bias is a subset of racism.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

It can all be abstracted into “tribalism”.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
When someone can look at a pair of parents and tell you their kid’s “tribe,” the difference between tribe and race becomes purely semantic.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Yes, that is my point. Everyone is constantly evaluating everyone else and placing them in different tribes with different priorities. All the way from parent child relationships to neighbors to country level and even global level. Skin color, wealth, relatives, philosophies, habits, and infinitely more characteristics are used to determine who will and will not benefit you or not benefit you and it can change with every scenario. I agree with comparing caste-ism to racism, and very well may be the same. It is very similar in that they classify someone as part of a tribe because of their ancestors. But it is also quite similar to classifying someone based on their accent, which side of town they grew up in, or what university they attended, because they all end up being a function of who one’s ancestors are also.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > it is also quite similar to classifying someone based on their accent, which side of town they grew up in, or what university they attended, because they all end up being a function of who one’s ancestors are This is fair. The salient difference for me emerges in immigration. The fact that someone can look at an Indian American speaking American English, dressed in Western garb and educated in America and determine something about their parents' caste puts caste closer to race than e.g. wealth, religion or sexual orientation.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      I find "race" is not very useful as a concept once you start getting into the weeds. When I try to get to the root cause of why people want to categorize others, I often find it is about utility. Surely, it can be evil too such as someone wanting to punish others or getting a feeling of superiority from viewing others as being below. But it can also be about going with who you think will have your back when the situation gets hairy (which can include covering up your misdeeds), or simply someone who will help you. In that sense, an Indian American speaking American English, dressed in Western garb and educated in America who is likelier to have many cousins and family who are engineers/doctors/lawyers/business owners could be more useful than a visually identical Indian American who is not as likely to have that family background. The compounding effects of networking really hamper efforts to increase equality of opportunity.
- inglor_cz 4y ago
  Not really, there are a lot of non-racially based "tribes" out there that can be told apart by clothing and other attributes. Quakers, Muslims, hippies, the Amish etc. come to mind.

cuteboy19 4y ago

I agree, if only for the purpose of avoiding ignorant comments like "America has a caste system too, rich vs poor" which we often find in these discussions

selimthegrim 4y ago
To be fair, (Brahmin) Communist Chief Minister of West Bengal used to say the same thing about Bengal.

encryptluks2 4y ago

Isn't racism based on race or ethnic groups. Caste bias can be like a white person judging another white person because one grew up in the Bronx while the other is from New Jersey. That is not racism but classism maybe mixed in with some religious discrimination.

trashtester 4y ago
I disagree. Normal classism can be overcome to a much greater degree than Caste. An upper class person may have 4 working class grandparents. A person with 4 lower caste grandparents will never be an upper caste, just like someone with 4 black grandparents will not be seen as white. The caste system has been enforced strictly enough to even have an imprint on the DNA: https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/Caste-system-has-left-imprints-on-genes-study/article14022623.ece https://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/Caste-system-has-l... In other words, casts differ from each other in ways that are similar to how Jews differ from other Europeans. And I would definitely label anti-Semitism as racism, even if it is usually difficult to identify a Jew by appearance.
- dhosek 4y ago
  Isabel Wilkerson’s book Caste has a really good overview of the caste system in India and how it’s very distinct from class issues.
sreevisakh 4y ago
You're missing the cultural insight needed to understand caste. For example, two people from New Jersey may tolerate each other even if one of their ancestors are from other places. Castes on the other hand, carries on from generation to generation. It's extremely hard to get rid of the caste label you're born with. Another factor is the level of discrimination involved. Caste is widely used to judge academic and professional proficiencies. It's extremely hard for lower caste people to rise up even if they work hard. They get denied and often demotivated in public. It gets much worse within India. Lower caste people are kept away from good residential areas, many commercial establishments and even village wells.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]