9 ms·

In Germany, my rule of thumb was that a constant 1W load is 1€/year. This year, I had to update it, it is now more something like 3€/year. The increase is so im

by Loic 4y ago

In Germany, my rule of thumb was that a constant 1W load is 1€/year. This year, I had to update it, it is now more something like 3€/year. The increase is so important I am still not sure if my calculations are right! 1W x 24h x 365 = 8760Wh My current price: 0.33€/kWh (100% renewable) 8.76kWh x 0.33€/kWh = 2.89€

zapt02 4y ago
You can use Nord Pool data for the last couple of years to do estimations. https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/de-lu/hourly/?view=table https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-...
- ReadTheLicense 4y ago
  You have day-ahead pricing at home? Please tell me how
  - zapt02 4y ago
    It will depend on where you live, very common in Sweden with many companies offering it.
  - joneskoo 4y ago
    Spot price (+margin) contracts became common in Finland at least some years ago. Most energy companies provide them now. The margin is something like 0.30–0.40 cent/kWh. We buy energy from any Finnish seller with contract separate from transfer of electricity (a natural monopoly).
    - simfree 4y ago
      That margin is more than many commercial and industrial customers pay in Washington State. In the cheaper public utility districts here, the per kWh price is only double those rates, with no time of day pricing or similar shenanigans.
      - zapt02 4y ago
        The poster said it's an extra 0.4 cents/kWh, not 0.4 USD/kWh. Our contract in Sweden is NordPool market price + 0,006 USD/kWh. Typical electricity prices in Sweden is anything from 0,001 USD/kWh to 0.5 USD/kWh, it varies widely day by day. This is what enables people to be able to save by using electricity when it's almost free.
  - bungle 4y ago
    Yes, you just purchase your electricity with a market price contract (usually with added margin) and every day the next day prices are published around 3pm Finnish time (perhaps 12 UTC). Then just use the free APIs to load data and use the data to adjust when you spend electricity on what. E.g. to charge EV on cheapest hours, or load batteries, or when you fire up your electric Sauna... These days the price is different for every hour, in near future they move to 1/4 hour pricing. About 10% of finnish household contracts are market price contracts. Most of the contracts are kinda continuous (price changes every 12 months) or fixed (e.g. a two year fixed price contract).
  - simongray 4y ago
    This is also common in Denmark. You get the new estimated hour-by-hour rates around noon the day before. I actually made a little calendar subscription service[1] to help our household plan when to run the dishwasher, drier etc. and we've saved about 50% this quarter despite the rising electricity costs. You can usually tell when it's cheap/almost free too just by sticking your head out the window, since it's mostly always the cheapest on especially windy days. [1] https://el.simongray.dk/ https://el.simongray.dk/
aaronax 4y ago
I use $1 USD per watt per year, with electric prices around $0.10/kWh. Good enough to inform decisions like whether to leave a light on all the time ($5/year) or whether to purchase a NAS vs. used server ($40 vs. $300 per year). I guess my prices are actually a little over $0.10 and a watt over a year is a little under 10,000Wh as shown in your calculations, so those offset to make the estimate even more accurate (than necessary).
- bushbaba 4y ago
  In sf electricity is closer to 4x that rate.
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    I just signed a new contract at 18.9¢/kWh + delivery. That's up from last year's contract rate of 8.1¢/kWh. With the way the world is today, we'll all be paying SF prices soon.
    - simfree 4y ago
      California's power market is heavily distorted by the private utilities needing to make a profit, extreme cost of living, and a need to import power from other states.
  - happyopossum 4y ago
    if you're a PG&E customer, at top tier it's well over 4x, and closer to 5x, and since so many people WFH now, many more are paying in the top tier.
ghosty141 4y ago
This lines up with my experience, I use ~2/3€ per year per watt
cbmuser 4y ago
You don’t get 100% renewable in Germany. The mix is 50% renewables, the rest is nuclear, coal and natural gas. With nuclear being phased out for ideological reasons and natural gas being scarse due to the war in Ukraine, Germany will soon burn more coal than ever. New electricity contracts already go as high as 70 Cents/kWh thanks to the misguided energy policy in Germany.
- Symbiote 4y ago
  It's possible to pay extra for only renewable electricity.
  - joss82 4y ago
    No you can't (unless you do it yourself but the price is extremely high if you want uninterrupted power). What happens is: your provider purchase "green energy certificates" which means that some green electricity was generated on a sunny and/or windy day. When it's night and the wind don't blow, you use coal and gas as everyone else. No storage is cheap enough to store solar and wind energy on day-to-day scale, let alone seasonally. Please don't let the brainwashing gets to you and inform yourself.
    - highwaylights 4y ago
      There's a massive business opportunity for someone willing to produce low density batteries for home use. In a lot of countries customers are billed significantly less during the night than during the day for electricity, so the incentives already exist to make it financially worthwhile if a home battery pack that can provide a days typical use can be installed at a reasonable cost. This would substantially smooth out base load requirements and mean that renewables could make up substantially more of the energy mix.
      - joss82 4y ago
        > There's a massive business opportunity for someone willing to produce low density batteries for home use. Can you explain why, please? I'm genuinely interested. I don't understand how this would be anything other than rich prepper niche market. Installing batteries in all homes is going to be more expensive than grid storage, since you will need to pay more in total installation costs rather than installing ginormous grid batteries (or reversible dams, where feasible) in bulk.
mqus 4y ago
My rule was something like 2Eur /10W/Month(~2A 5V Raspi) which comes down to 2,4Eur/W/Y. Just for my curiosity though, Where did your 1Eur come from? The prices were >20ct for 10 years now. Or do you calculate without taxes and stuff?
- Loic 4y ago
  I suppose it was a "left over" from my time in France where the price was just above 10ct/kWh.

by Loic 4y ago

zapt02 4y ago

You can use Nord Pool data for the last couple of years to do estimations. https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-Prices/de-lu/hourly/?view=table https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/Dayahead/Area-...

ReadTheLicense 4y ago
You have day-ahead pricing at home? Please tell me how
- zapt02 4y ago
  It will depend on where you live, very common in Sweden with many companies offering it.
- joneskoo 4y ago
  Spot price (+margin) contracts became common in Finland at least some years ago. Most energy companies provide them now. The margin is something like 0.30–0.40 cent/kWh. We buy energy from any Finnish seller with contract separate from transfer of electricity (a natural monopoly).
  - simfree 4y ago
    That margin is more than many commercial and industrial customers pay in Washington State. In the cheaper public utility districts here, the per kWh price is only double those rates, with no time of day pricing or similar shenanigans.
    - zapt02 4y ago
      The poster said it's an extra 0.4 cents/kWh, not 0.4 USD/kWh. Our contract in Sweden is NordPool market price + 0,006 USD/kWh. Typical electricity prices in Sweden is anything from 0,001 USD/kWh to 0.5 USD/kWh, it varies widely day by day. This is what enables people to be able to save by using electricity when it's almost free.
- bungle 4y ago
  Yes, you just purchase your electricity with a market price contract (usually with added margin) and every day the next day prices are published around 3pm Finnish time (perhaps 12 UTC). Then just use the free APIs to load data and use the data to adjust when you spend electricity on what. E.g. to charge EV on cheapest hours, or load batteries, or when you fire up your electric Sauna... These days the price is different for every hour, in near future they move to 1/4 hour pricing. About 10% of finnish household contracts are market price contracts. Most of the contracts are kinda continuous (price changes every 12 months) or fixed (e.g. a two year fixed price contract).
- simongray 4y ago
  This is also common in Denmark. You get the new estimated hour-by-hour rates around noon the day before. I actually made a little calendar subscription service[1] to help our household plan when to run the dishwasher, drier etc. and we've saved about 50% this quarter despite the rising electricity costs. You can usually tell when it's cheap/almost free too just by sticking your head out the window, since it's mostly always the cheapest on especially windy days. [1] https://el.simongray.dk/ https://el.simongray.dk/

aaronax 4y ago

I use $1 USD per watt per year, with electric prices around $0.10/kWh. Good enough to inform decisions like whether to leave a light on all the time ($5/year) or whether to purchase a NAS vs. used server ($40 vs. $300 per year). I guess my prices are actually a little over $0.10 and a watt over a year is a little under 10,000Wh as shown in your calculations, so those offset to make the estimate even more accurate (than necessary).

bushbaba 4y ago
In sf electricity is closer to 4x that rate.
- reaperducer 4y ago
  I just signed a new contract at 18.9¢/kWh + delivery. That's up from last year's contract rate of 8.1¢/kWh. With the way the world is today, we'll all be paying SF prices soon.
  - simfree 4y ago
    California's power market is heavily distorted by the private utilities needing to make a profit, extreme cost of living, and a need to import power from other states.
- happyopossum 4y ago
  if you're a PG&E customer, at top tier it's well over 4x, and closer to 5x, and since so many people WFH now, many more are paying in the top tier.

ghosty141 4y ago

This lines up with my experience, I use ~2/3€ per year per watt

cbmuser 4y ago

You don’t get 100% renewable in Germany. The mix is 50% renewables, the rest is nuclear, coal and natural gas. With nuclear being phased out for ideological reasons and natural gas being scarse due to the war in Ukraine, Germany will soon burn more coal than ever. New electricity contracts already go as high as 70 Cents/kWh thanks to the misguided energy policy in Germany.

Symbiote 4y ago
It's possible to pay extra for only renewable electricity.
- joss82 4y ago
  No you can't (unless you do it yourself but the price is extremely high if you want uninterrupted power). What happens is: your provider purchase "green energy certificates" which means that some green electricity was generated on a sunny and/or windy day. When it's night and the wind don't blow, you use coal and gas as everyone else. No storage is cheap enough to store solar and wind energy on day-to-day scale, let alone seasonally. Please don't let the brainwashing gets to you and inform yourself.
  - highwaylights 4y ago
    There's a massive business opportunity for someone willing to produce low density batteries for home use. In a lot of countries customers are billed significantly less during the night than during the day for electricity, so the incentives already exist to make it financially worthwhile if a home battery pack that can provide a days typical use can be installed at a reasonable cost. This would substantially smooth out base load requirements and mean that renewables could make up substantially more of the energy mix.
    - joss82 4y ago
      > There's a massive business opportunity for someone willing to produce low density batteries for home use. Can you explain why, please? I'm genuinely interested. I don't understand how this would be anything other than rich prepper niche market. Installing batteries in all homes is going to be more expensive than grid storage, since you will need to pay more in total installation costs rather than installing ginormous grid batteries (or reversible dams, where feasible) in bulk.

mqus 4y ago

My rule was something like 2Eur /10W/Month(~2A 5V Raspi) which comes down to 2,4Eur/W/Y. Just for my curiosity though, Where did your 1Eur come from? The prices were >20ct for 10 years now. Or do you calculate without taxes and stuff?

Loic 4y ago
I suppose it was a "left over" from my time in France where the price was just above 10ct/kWh.