4 ms·

I'd like to provide my anecdotal experience with the just-world worldview. During a short period, I experienced a few events outside my control that shook my s

by dmos62 4y ago

I'd like to provide my anecdotal experience with the just-world worldview. During a short period, I experienced a few events outside my control that shook my sense of security. One was a family member becoming ill, and the other was war. I was in distress: my world-view at the time was implicitly built around justice, and it could not account for what was happening. Over a few months, I found comfort in a different world-view: that justice is a fiction. That brought me so much comfort that it seemed almost like joy. This is my current world-view. A more elaborate description of this world-view is that morality, justice, caring, altruism, and all the other good things, only have an effect in-so-far as they have an effect, if that makes sense. No more, no less. They're tools, constructs and behaviours, and, on their own, without context, they are meaningless. This is harder to formulate that I expected. I have noticed that with this mindset, I have become more selfish, less considerate. On the plus side, I have become calmer and more level-headed. I now also find it easier to sympathize with both "perpetrators" of injustice, as well as with "victims" of injustice. Before, I sympathized more with the victims, and tended to dismiss the aggressors. Now, I don't feel like there's a qualitative difference between the two, to put it harshly. I'm not sure what to make of this yet. My new, "selfish" mindset is definitely an adaptation to injustices I perceived, and might be a regression. But, also, it might be that I have discarded a less-than-useful concept of justice from my mind, and now that I don't identify with "victims" anymore, I have to build up another foundation for cooperative behaviour.

DougN7 4y ago
I’m sitting here pondering what you wrote and trying to understand what you mean. “Life isn’t fair”, or just for that matter, are absolutely true in my opinion. However, justice is still a goal worth striving for. Do you still agree with that, or did that go out the door because of your experiences? And, I am sorry for the harsh experiences you’ve had. I can relate to loved ones being sick, but thankfully not to war.
- dmos62 4y ago
  Hey, thanks for relating. To answer your question, I guess I've become a bit "robotic", for the lack of a better word, about justice. I find that kindness, protection, being fair, etc. are important ways to take care of others, which to some extent is pleasant on its own, but also can have desirable knock-on effects. In short, good will leads to good will. I don't experience it as a moral or metaphysical dilemma, but as a calculation.
  - Balgair 4y ago
    From your posts, it sounds like you've been through a lot. Have you been doing any therapy or counseling to help out? I've been going through a lot too, and even a tiny bit of counseling has helped me out. I'm genuinely not trying to dismiss your feelings or thoughts, just hoping that you are getting the help you need in such a trying time. I hope things get better for you and your's.
    - dmos62 4y ago
      Hey, thanks for your concern. I hope that things go well for you as well. I'd say I'm not that bad off. While I don't feel like counseling is something I urgently need, I'm sure it would have a positive effect, and I'd love to do it some time.
      - DougN7 4y ago
        Having never thought I needed counseling, after having had some, I wish everyone could do it (assuming you find a good counselor). Hope you get that chance to try it.
soco 4y ago
I believe the world is neither just nor unjust - it only doesn't give by default a rat's ass on me. And on top of that it's uncontrollable and mostly incomprehensible (at least the forward looking part). So yeah that puts me in a selfish position. But. Cooperation always did and still does bring advantages to me, so I'm all in for cooperation. I also believe that win-win is the best basis for a future cooperation as well, so that's what I strive for. Thus what I perceive as "injustice" is a crime against cooperation, thus indirectly against me and gets no support.
badpun 4y ago
Sounds like you're traumatised tbh. I suspect that adopting the dog-eat-dog mentality does not lead to a happy life, esp. for people who were previously more compassionate.
pjc50 4y ago
(answering with a long quotation which became part of my worldview) “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. "So we can believe the big ones?" YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. "They're not the same at all!" YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" MY POINT EXACTLY.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather
- andreareina 4y ago
  Amazing that I'd only read to Susan's name and immediately knew what passage this was. I need to re-read the books. GNU Terry Pratchett
mistermann 4y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters
headsoup 4y ago
Having children is a pretty good one! Relationships with trust. You're not necessarily more selfish just because you're not trying to 'care' about everything so much anymore, you're just being more rational. You focus your sympathy/compassion and care on those they can affect, where you can apply understanding and judgement. Justice is not moral. Understanding is moral, IMO.
datavirtue 4y ago
Same here. "Now, I don't feel like there's a qualitative difference between the two, to put it harshly." There isnt. I'm cool with psychopathic killers and rapists being locked up indefinitely and/or killed by the state on my behalf. In reality, we have not fully considered the drivers of their behavior nor tailored the response to be compassionate of their circumstances. Are they mentally ill? Did they grow up in an orphanage where they were abused and humiliated daily by the other kids and staff? We don't have time for such questions and considerations because we have to get them off the street. We tell ourselves it is justice because the truth takes far too many resources to fully reconcile. Consent (inaction) of the governed.

by dmos62 4y ago

DougN7 4y ago

I’m sitting here pondering what you wrote and trying to understand what you mean. “Life isn’t fair”, or just for that matter, are absolutely true in my opinion. However, justice is still a goal worth striving for. Do you still agree with that, or did that go out the door because of your experiences? And, I am sorry for the harsh experiences you’ve had. I can relate to loved ones being sick, but thankfully not to war.

dmos62 4y ago
Hey, thanks for relating. To answer your question, I guess I've become a bit "robotic", for the lack of a better word, about justice. I find that kindness, protection, being fair, etc. are important ways to take care of others, which to some extent is pleasant on its own, but also can have desirable knock-on effects. In short, good will leads to good will. I don't experience it as a moral or metaphysical dilemma, but as a calculation.
- Balgair 4y ago
  From your posts, it sounds like you've been through a lot. Have you been doing any therapy or counseling to help out? I've been going through a lot too, and even a tiny bit of counseling has helped me out. I'm genuinely not trying to dismiss your feelings or thoughts, just hoping that you are getting the help you need in such a trying time. I hope things get better for you and your's.
  - dmos62 4y ago
    Hey, thanks for your concern. I hope that things go well for you as well. I'd say I'm not that bad off. While I don't feel like counseling is something I urgently need, I'm sure it would have a positive effect, and I'd love to do it some time.
    - DougN7 4y ago
      Having never thought I needed counseling, after having had some, I wish everyone could do it (assuming you find a good counselor). Hope you get that chance to try it.

soco 4y ago

I believe the world is neither just nor unjust - it only doesn't give by default a rat's ass on me. And on top of that it's uncontrollable and mostly incomprehensible (at least the forward looking part). So yeah that puts me in a selfish position. But. Cooperation always did and still does bring advantages to me, so I'm all in for cooperation. I also believe that win-win is the best basis for a future cooperation as well, so that's what I strive for. Thus what I perceive as "injustice" is a crime against cooperation, thus indirectly against me and gets no support.

badpun 4y ago

Sounds like you're traumatised tbh. I suspect that adopting the dog-eat-dog mentality does not lead to a happy life, esp. for people who were previously more compassionate.

pjc50 4y ago

(answering with a long quotation which became part of my worldview) “All right," said Susan. "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need... fantasies to make life bearable." REALLY? AS IF IT WAS SOME KIND OF PINK PILL? NO. HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO BE HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE. "Tooth fairies? Hogfathers? Little—" YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES. "So we can believe the big ones?" YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING. "They're not the same at all!" YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED. "Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—" MY POINT EXACTLY.” ― Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

andreareina 4y ago
Amazing that I'd only read to Susan's name and immediately knew what passage this was. I need to re-read the books. GNU Terry Pratchett

mistermann 4y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters

headsoup 4y ago

Having children is a pretty good one! Relationships with trust. You're not necessarily more selfish just because you're not trying to 'care' about everything so much anymore, you're just being more rational. You focus your sympathy/compassion and care on those they can affect, where you can apply understanding and judgement. Justice is not moral. Understanding is moral, IMO.

datavirtue 4y ago

Same here. "Now, I don't feel like there's a qualitative difference between the two, to put it harshly." There isnt. I'm cool with psychopathic killers and rapists being locked up indefinitely and/or killed by the state on my behalf. In reality, we have not fully considered the drivers of their behavior nor tailored the response to be compassionate of their circumstances. Are they mentally ill? Did they grow up in an orphanage where they were abused and humiliated daily by the other kids and staff? We don't have time for such questions and considerations because we have to get them off the street. We tell ourselves it is justice because the truth takes far too many resources to fully reconcile. Consent (inaction) of the governed.