5 ms·

Programming and Writing

120 points by revorad 4y ago

wellpast 4y ago
Programming may be related to one half of fiction writing - the structural and logical facets. There is a whole other half of emotional authenticity and character building that make it far broader and more difficult than programming. That is, if you want an effective product. The thing is in programming there is no such “Mom” whose approval will validate the program. It will either run and do it’s job or not. Whereas in writing, you will at least always have your mother in the audience that will say “Sure sweety That’s a novel”
- bigcat12345678 4y ago
  The mom is not too different from one's wife who does not code, but always will look at the husband's poorly written code in spare time with awe and love. Programming is just writing... No difference whatsoever...
- suby 4y ago
  I don't fully agree with this. If you're writing a video game for example, the emotional authenticity and character building would be equivalent to cohesive mechanics which work well together, graphical quality / aesthetics, even story and level design all require programming to one degree or another. The same can be said for other types of programs like meeting business needs, but I think the video game analogy illustrates the point best. In other words, the authenticity and character building is how well you're fulfilling the purpose or goal that you set out to accomplish.
keyle 4y ago
Note, that post is over a year old and it looks like the book is available here http://antirez.com/news/136 http://antirez.com/news/136 I also just realised the name was familiar, it's the redis guy that moved on.
- intrestingstuff 4y ago
  he's next fu cking level as a developer
deltathreetwo 4y ago
What is programming not related to? Seriously a huge portion of posts here are just about programming analogies.
- epgui 4y ago
  News flash, nearly everything is related to everything, and that’s interesting!
  - deltathreetwo 4y ago
    - czx4f4bd 4y ago
      It's quite something to denounce the arrogance and pompousness of others while proclaiming that they "haven't seen the light" and declaring they've taken the easy path in life. > No other profession does this kind of pompous comparisons. Learning from other disciplines is an incredibly common practice across many professions and often leads to insights as people discover new perspectives and ways of working. J. M. Baruch - Creative Writing as a Medical Instrument https://bioethics.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/publication-images/CEPResources/Baruch,%20JD%20(2013).pdf https://bioethics.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/publication-i... Gill Darling - On Being a Writer and an Accountant http://booksbywomen.org/on-being-a-writer-and-an-accountant/ http://booksbywomen.org/on-being-a-writer-and-an-accountant/ Matteo Pericoli - Writers as Architects https://web.archive.org/web/20220211003226/https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/writers-as-architects/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220211003226/https://opinionat...
      - epgui 4y ago
        Don’t bother, this commenter has just been following me across threads today. I think I said something they didn’t like somewhere else.
        4y ago
diamondap 4y ago
Funny. I wrote a similar article, with almost the same title, seventeen years into my programming career, after writing my first novel. https://adiamond.me/2015/01/writing-and-programming/ https://adiamond.me/2015/01/writing-and-programming/ The huge help that programming gives to a novelist is the practice of breaking down huge, sprawling problems into smaller, manageable, interconnected pieces. As a programmer/writer, you also learn to keep the big picture in mind, so the pieces naturally assemble back into a whole.
rufius 4y ago
When asked (usually by students and junior engineers) which class helped me most with my career, I always cite Senior Year High school English (American 12th grade). Mrs. Scott taught me more about organizing my thoughts and structuring a paper (and program) than any CS class I took ever did.
didgetmaster 4y ago
Sometimes I wish books and movies were a bit more like software. We have all read or watched something as version 1.0 and thought "that chapter or scene needs to be rewritten". Some things need big changes and not just minor edits. It would be cool if version 1.0 would be released and get user feedback on what works and what doesn't and then the author or director would make big changes and release a version 2.0.
- _vdpp 4y ago
  Counterpoint: Star Wars Special Editions.
  - glandium 4y ago
    Those were fucked up 1.1 versions though, not 2.0. And nobody was asking for them.
- glandium 4y ago
  In some way, that kind of happened with the "Snyder cut", although the story is more complex, in that the original version of the movie never happened, a different movie was made, and the original one ended up being done, but it was also influenced by what was done for the first release and the subsequent reviews.
- huimang 4y ago
  Nah, then nothing would ever be “finished”. Nothing is perfect. I’d rather have things released under someone’s vision and then just left alone, than getting random updates, especially from feedback.
- v-erne 4y ago
  I believe Titanic has version 1.1 with better visual effects and correct star positions (lets call it a "change request" from Tyson)
roberuto 4y ago
OP, I always thought the 2 processes, writing code and writing an dissertation, where the same activity. Both must be written clearly enough for a HUMAN audience, even though coding is supposed to be read by the compiler / interpreter. A good text flows in the mind when read, and the reader builds a story in their minds. Of course coding is more complex, because sometimes there is a story inside a story, but... it is always a story.
rytill 4y ago
> I believe programming, in this regard, can learn something from writing: when writing the first core of a new system, when the original creator is still alone, isolated, able to do anything, she should pretend that this first core is her only bullet. During the genesis of the system she should rewrite this primitive kernel again and again, in order to find the best possible design. My hypothesis is that this initial design will greatly inform what will happen later: growing organically something that has a good initial structure will result in a better system, even after years of distance from the original creation, and even if the original core was just a tiny faction of the future mass the system would eventually assume. I thought this paragraph had an interesting point. Does anyone have experience with testing this hypothesis?
- dceddia 4y ago
  That section stood out to me too. I ended up doing this a few months back while working on the playback system in my video editor Recut. I ended up rewriting that system at least 5 times. I was also learning Rust at the same time, and I had little knowledge of video going in. So it was a loop like: build something, get it working, realize I designed myself into a corner and couldn’t handle some important scenario, go back to the drawing board. Stuff like dealing with the threads and queues, playing streams from multiple files in sync when they have different frame rates, and managing playback of multiple tracks that each have lots of cuts were some of the things that tripped me up and led to redesigns. It ended up being a good learning experience and I’m glad I spent the time to rewrite instead of trying to forge ahead with broken abstractions. It’s still not perfect but it’s miles ahead of those first few iterations.
- emeraldd 4y ago
  I’ve always found that starting a new project works best when I build the baseline alone, after some design discussion. If it’s too complex a problem to build that way, the fewer and more focused the team, better the baseline is. Once you start adding more and more people to a system, things start going down hill in proportion to the number of parallel work streams. Of course, this depends on how “big” a problem you’re working on and how the problem can be broken down. (i.e divided areas of responsibility in the code base with clear contracts between them). It’s way too easy to lose focus on design philosophy and structure as more people are involved in the actual development/coding.
qazpot 4y ago
Is there any word when programmers engage in some other activity and then realize and rationalize that the said activity has a lot common with programming.
- magpi3 4y ago
  There is a saying: how you do one thing is how you do everything. The commonalities may say more about you than the work you are doing.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
slim 4y ago
you know that writer block also happens in programming never thought about calling it simply "writer block". spot on

120 points by revorad 4y ago

Programming may be related to one half of fiction writing - the structural and logical facets. There is a whole other half of emotional authenticity and character building that make it far broader and more difficult than programming. That is, if you want an effective product. The thing is in programming there is no such “Mom” whose approval will validate the program. It will either run and do it’s job or not. Whereas in writing, you will at least always have your mother in the audience that will say “Sure sweety That’s a novel”

bigcat12345678 4y ago
The mom is not too different from one's wife who does not code, but always will look at the husband's poorly written code in spare time with awe and love. Programming is just writing... No difference whatsoever...
suby 4y ago
I don't fully agree with this. If you're writing a video game for example, the emotional authenticity and character building would be equivalent to cohesive mechanics which work well together, graphical quality / aesthetics, even story and level design all require programming to one degree or another. The same can be said for other types of programs like meeting business needs, but I think the video game analogy illustrates the point best. In other words, the authenticity and character building is how well you're fulfilling the purpose or goal that you set out to accomplish.

keyle 4y ago

Note, that post is over a year old and it looks like the book is available here http://antirez.com/news/136 http://antirez.com/news/136 I also just realised the name was familiar, it's the redis guy that moved on.

intrestingstuff 4y ago
he's next fu cking level as a developer

deltathreetwo 4y ago

What is programming not related to? Seriously a huge portion of posts here are just about programming analogies.

epgui 4y ago
News flash, nearly everything is related to everything, and that’s interesting!
- deltathreetwo 4y ago
  - czx4f4bd 4y ago
    It's quite something to denounce the arrogance and pompousness of others while proclaiming that they "haven't seen the light" and declaring they've taken the easy path in life. > No other profession does this kind of pompous comparisons. Learning from other disciplines is an incredibly common practice across many professions and often leads to insights as people discover new perspectives and ways of working. J. M. Baruch - Creative Writing as a Medical Instrument https://bioethics.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/publication-images/CEPResources/Baruch,%20JD%20(2013).pdf https://bioethics.pitt.edu/sites/default/files/publication-i... Gill Darling - On Being a Writer and an Accountant http://booksbywomen.org/on-being-a-writer-and-an-accountant/ http://booksbywomen.org/on-being-a-writer-and-an-accountant/ Matteo Pericoli - Writers as Architects https://web.archive.org/web/20220211003226/https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/03/writers-as-architects/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220211003226/https://opinionat...
    - epgui 4y ago
      Don’t bother, this commenter has just been following me across threads today. I think I said something they didn’t like somewhere else.
      - 4y ago

diamondap 4y ago

Funny. I wrote a similar article, with almost the same title, seventeen years into my programming career, after writing my first novel. https://adiamond.me/2015/01/writing-and-programming/ https://adiamond.me/2015/01/writing-and-programming/ The huge help that programming gives to a novelist is the practice of breaking down huge, sprawling problems into smaller, manageable, interconnected pieces. As a programmer/writer, you also learn to keep the big picture in mind, so the pieces naturally assemble back into a whole.

rufius 4y ago

When asked (usually by students and junior engineers) which class helped me most with my career, I always cite Senior Year High school English (American 12th grade). Mrs. Scott taught me more about organizing my thoughts and structuring a paper (and program) than any CS class I took ever did.

didgetmaster 4y ago

Sometimes I wish books and movies were a bit more like software. We have all read or watched something as version 1.0 and thought "that chapter or scene needs to be rewritten". Some things need big changes and not just minor edits. It would be cool if version 1.0 would be released and get user feedback on what works and what doesn't and then the author or director would make big changes and release a version 2.0.

_vdpp 4y ago
Counterpoint: Star Wars Special Editions.
- glandium 4y ago
  Those were fucked up 1.1 versions though, not 2.0. And nobody was asking for them.
glandium 4y ago
In some way, that kind of happened with the "Snyder cut", although the story is more complex, in that the original version of the movie never happened, a different movie was made, and the original one ended up being done, but it was also influenced by what was done for the first release and the subsequent reviews.
huimang 4y ago
Nah, then nothing would ever be “finished”. Nothing is perfect. I’d rather have things released under someone’s vision and then just left alone, than getting random updates, especially from feedback.
v-erne 4y ago
I believe Titanic has version 1.1 with better visual effects and correct star positions (lets call it a "change request" from Tyson)

roberuto 4y ago

OP, I always thought the 2 processes, writing code and writing an dissertation, where the same activity. Both must be written clearly enough for a HUMAN audience, even though coding is supposed to be read by the compiler / interpreter. A good text flows in the mind when read, and the reader builds a story in their minds. Of course coding is more complex, because sometimes there is a story inside a story, but... it is always a story.

rytill 4y ago

> I believe programming, in this regard, can learn something from writing: when writing the first core of a new system, when the original creator is still alone, isolated, able to do anything, she should pretend that this first core is her only bullet. During the genesis of the system she should rewrite this primitive kernel again and again, in order to find the best possible design. My hypothesis is that this initial design will greatly inform what will happen later: growing organically something that has a good initial structure will result in a better system, even after years of distance from the original creation, and even if the original core was just a tiny faction of the future mass the system would eventually assume. I thought this paragraph had an interesting point. Does anyone have experience with testing this hypothesis?

dceddia 4y ago
That section stood out to me too. I ended up doing this a few months back while working on the playback system in my video editor Recut. I ended up rewriting that system at least 5 times. I was also learning Rust at the same time, and I had little knowledge of video going in. So it was a loop like: build something, get it working, realize I designed myself into a corner and couldn’t handle some important scenario, go back to the drawing board. Stuff like dealing with the threads and queues, playing streams from multiple files in sync when they have different frame rates, and managing playback of multiple tracks that each have lots of cuts were some of the things that tripped me up and led to redesigns. It ended up being a good learning experience and I’m glad I spent the time to rewrite instead of trying to forge ahead with broken abstractions. It’s still not perfect but it’s miles ahead of those first few iterations.
emeraldd 4y ago
I’ve always found that starting a new project works best when I build the baseline alone, after some design discussion. If it’s too complex a problem to build that way, the fewer and more focused the team, better the baseline is. Once you start adding more and more people to a system, things start going down hill in proportion to the number of parallel work streams. Of course, this depends on how “big” a problem you’re working on and how the problem can be broken down. (i.e divided areas of responsibility in the code base with clear contracts between them). It’s way too easy to lose focus on design philosophy and structure as more people are involved in the actual development/coding.

qazpot 4y ago

Is there any word when programmers engage in some other activity and then realize and rationalize that the said activity has a lot common with programming.

magpi3 4y ago
There is a saying: how you do one thing is how you do everything. The commonalities may say more about you than the work you are doing.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

slim 4y ago

you know that writer block also happens in programming never thought about calling it simply "writer block". spot on