5 ms·

I still don't understand why Moscow doesn't look like Dubai with all the resources Russians have.

redwood 4y ago
The national wealth is not reinvested and instead is extracted by kleptocrats and invested into places like Miami and Dubai.. Honestly the bigger tragedy is that they're unable to put their brilliant population with wonderful education to use building a modern economy and instead put their minds in a vice, put them in prison, and force them to flee in droves. It's really a human tragedy
- cpursley 4y ago
  Are you actually familiar with Russia (or just the Reddit/Twitter depiction of Russia)? For one, Russia has a lower prison population than the USA. And that's even with some absolutely ridiculous and archaic laws. Russian consumer and tech companies are on par or in many cases, surpass the US. Yandex Taxi (and their other services), Ozon, Wildberries, Kusvil (grocery), banking mobile apps, shipping/logistics services - these are just some examples.
  - lazide 4y ago
    Not the poster, but I know quite a few native Russians and their description of the corruption and looting matches the posters description.
    - cpursley 4y ago
      When was the last time they lived in Russia? That was true in the 90s and 2000's but things have changed drastically in the past 10 years.
      - lazide 4y ago
        About that time, but have family and friends in Moscow and used to visit regularly until the war. What they noted is had started to get better (albeit still with corruption and kleptocrats everywhere outside of the big Moscow foreign companies) then with the sanctions everything imploded again - but it was still pretty awful. They’re pretty left leaning and the wife is in tech and had to leave because of the blatant discrimination/sexism against her though, so I’m sure that weighs heavily on her analysis.
      - redwood 4y ago
        I'm guessing you live in Moscow? the rest of the country is half way between a developing economy and a western state in terms of quality of living, and that's all on top of the fact that Russia is pursuing a violent war of aggression, by choice, against a large European-leaning neighbor.
        cpursley 4y ago
        No, but I've spent time living in Russia (outside Moscow) and understand enough Russian to get by. A Russian friend of mine recently ordered a fresh avocado from the Delivery Club app and had it delivered to his front door within 15 mins. For like $2. And that's after 6 or 7 packages of sanctions and getting cut off from SWIFT. Yep, sounds like a place that's dysfunctional and on the verge of collapsing...
        redwood 4y ago
        I'm not sure what you're saying: access to a vegetable is comparable to access to a TSMC produced chip necessary to fly a guided missile into a Ukrainian schoolhouse?
        cpursley 4y ago
        An exotic vegetable that expires quickly. It means their supply chains nor financial links are not in tatters contrary to the western narrative.
        cpursley 4y ago
        i.e., grannies fighting over buckwheat
        redwood 4y ago
        That's a very specific supply chain for an unsanctioned good.. avocados ship straight from somewhat neutral countries Israel and Cyprus. In terms of the ability to purchase, you are correct that dollars continue flowing into Russia due to the energy export situation. That of course is the big open question, can the West endure a cold winter with jackets indoor and cripple the Russian economy or not
  - redwood 4y ago
    Intimately familiar. The culture is so beaten down by totalitarianism that no one even feels comfortable speaking out even to their friends. All of the tech you're mentioning was built during a unique period of access to western technology that is now going to be harder and harder to get. You're hitting the nail on the head that during that period it was the perfect moment for Russia to change and it was what the west was betting on. The tragedy is that without institutions to nurture an open society Russia became a totalitarian state yet again and that has now gone beyond oppressing its own people into living in squalor by western standards and now into violently attempting to destroy a large western leaning country: we're seeing a nightmare play out.
    - cpursley 4y ago
      > Intimately familiar So you're Russian or spent time living there? Have you visited in the past 5 years or so?
      - redwood 4y ago
        I was there 3 years ago. It was a summer time visit to one of the medium size cities in Siberia, St Pete, and Moscow. I saw people that reminded me enormously of the US: folks absorbed by their own (very large) world and I realized how Siberia was settled at a similar time to the American west: so many parallels. The difference being the power of the federal center and the boot stomp of the authorities that are expected. The fear. People don't even cross the road when there is no traffic.
        cpursley 4y ago
        Cool, thanks for sharing. We're in agreement on some things. I also noticed the parallels with the US (people kind of in their own world). Also like Americans, Russians don't usually speak foreign languages (outside of the two big cities). But I do think they know geography and foreign events better than Americans fwiw. Regarding traffic attitudes, I think it depends. There was a lot of Caucasus people where I lived and they know no such road rules. Crossing the street was fun... And don't get me started on attitudes towards seat belts and children's car seats...
cpursley 4y ago
You can't really compare the two as one was a greenfield top-down project while the other is an old already built-out and developed city. And have you been to Moscow lately? Current situation aside, Moscow is easily one of the cleanest and most well functioning cities in Europe. There's plenty of construction and a lot of renovation. They recently completed their second ring metro line (second!) complete with beautiful and unique stations: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/12/08/moscow-metro-opens-10-new-stations-on-the-big-circle-line-a75758 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/12/08/moscow-metro-opens... It's actually shocking to land there after spending a couple days in NYC. I'd (and many Russians) would argue that there's actually too much investment in Moscow and not enough outside of it. A lot of Westerns have an distorted understanding of what Moscow is actually like due to how it's (intentionally) depicted in Hollywood. If you want to get an idea of what Moscow feels like check YouTube for the "Lost in Moscow" channel and just scroll through a bunch of their videos. Here's an example: https://youtu.be/h6vpRtbuJfM https://youtu.be/h6vpRtbuJfM
- richiebful1 4y ago
  Agreed. As an American who lived in Moscow, I would consider retiring there if Russia wasn't actively hostile to the West. Excellent public transit, much lower cost of living vs the United States, commuter train (electrichka) access to the countryside
wongarsu 4y ago
The way Russia transitioned from Socialist to Capitalist was a bit of a mess. The widely accepted best practice was to sell state-owned companies to raise capital to operate the state. But Russia didn't want to sell to Western countries for obvious reasons, and citizens from the former Soviet Union weren't well equipped to pay fair prizes. So companies more or less went for pennies to those who could call in the most favors, cementing the corruption that already plagued the USSR. Of course there are also other factors, like Russia spending a bunch on things that it deems strategically necessary, but that don't result in immediate money flows (like subsidizing cites beyond the Ural).

The national wealth is not reinvested and instead is extracted by kleptocrats and invested into places like Miami and Dubai.. Honestly the bigger tragedy is that they're unable to put their brilliant population with wonderful education to use building a modern economy and instead put their minds in a vice, put them in prison, and force them to flee in droves. It's really a human tragedy

cpursley 4y ago
Are you actually familiar with Russia (or just the Reddit/Twitter depiction of Russia)? For one, Russia has a lower prison population than the USA. And that's even with some absolutely ridiculous and archaic laws. Russian consumer and tech companies are on par or in many cases, surpass the US. Yandex Taxi (and their other services), Ozon, Wildberries, Kusvil (grocery), banking mobile apps, shipping/logistics services - these are just some examples.
- lazide 4y ago
  Not the poster, but I know quite a few native Russians and their description of the corruption and looting matches the posters description.
  - cpursley 4y ago
    When was the last time they lived in Russia? That was true in the 90s and 2000's but things have changed drastically in the past 10 years.
    - lazide 4y ago
      About that time, but have family and friends in Moscow and used to visit regularly until the war. What they noted is had started to get better (albeit still with corruption and kleptocrats everywhere outside of the big Moscow foreign companies) then with the sanctions everything imploded again - but it was still pretty awful. They’re pretty left leaning and the wife is in tech and had to leave because of the blatant discrimination/sexism against her though, so I’m sure that weighs heavily on her analysis.
    - redwood 4y ago
      I'm guessing you live in Moscow? the rest of the country is half way between a developing economy and a western state in terms of quality of living, and that's all on top of the fact that Russia is pursuing a violent war of aggression, by choice, against a large European-leaning neighbor.
      - cpursley 4y ago
        No, but I've spent time living in Russia (outside Moscow) and understand enough Russian to get by. A Russian friend of mine recently ordered a fresh avocado from the Delivery Club app and had it delivered to his front door within 15 mins. For like $2. And that's after 6 or 7 packages of sanctions and getting cut off from SWIFT. Yep, sounds like a place that's dysfunctional and on the verge of collapsing...
        redwood 4y ago
        I'm not sure what you're saying: access to a vegetable is comparable to access to a TSMC produced chip necessary to fly a guided missile into a Ukrainian schoolhouse?
        cpursley 4y ago
        An exotic vegetable that expires quickly. It means their supply chains nor financial links are not in tatters contrary to the western narrative.
        cpursley 4y ago
        i.e., grannies fighting over buckwheat
        redwood 4y ago
        That's a very specific supply chain for an unsanctioned good.. avocados ship straight from somewhat neutral countries Israel and Cyprus. In terms of the ability to purchase, you are correct that dollars continue flowing into Russia due to the energy export situation. That of course is the big open question, can the West endure a cold winter with jackets indoor and cripple the Russian economy or not
- redwood 4y ago
  Intimately familiar. The culture is so beaten down by totalitarianism that no one even feels comfortable speaking out even to their friends. All of the tech you're mentioning was built during a unique period of access to western technology that is now going to be harder and harder to get. You're hitting the nail on the head that during that period it was the perfect moment for Russia to change and it was what the west was betting on. The tragedy is that without institutions to nurture an open society Russia became a totalitarian state yet again and that has now gone beyond oppressing its own people into living in squalor by western standards and now into violently attempting to destroy a large western leaning country: we're seeing a nightmare play out.
  - cpursley 4y ago
    > Intimately familiar So you're Russian or spent time living there? Have you visited in the past 5 years or so?
    - redwood 4y ago
      I was there 3 years ago. It was a summer time visit to one of the medium size cities in Siberia, St Pete, and Moscow. I saw people that reminded me enormously of the US: folks absorbed by their own (very large) world and I realized how Siberia was settled at a similar time to the American west: so many parallels. The difference being the power of the federal center and the boot stomp of the authorities that are expected. The fear. People don't even cross the road when there is no traffic.
      - cpursley 4y ago
        Cool, thanks for sharing. We're in agreement on some things. I also noticed the parallels with the US (people kind of in their own world). Also like Americans, Russians don't usually speak foreign languages (outside of the two big cities). But I do think they know geography and foreign events better than Americans fwiw. Regarding traffic attitudes, I think it depends. There was a lot of Caucasus people where I lived and they know no such road rules. Crossing the street was fun... And don't get me started on attitudes towards seat belts and children's car seats...

cpursley 4y ago

You can't really compare the two as one was a greenfield top-down project while the other is an old already built-out and developed city. And have you been to Moscow lately? Current situation aside, Moscow is easily one of the cleanest and most well functioning cities in Europe. There's plenty of construction and a lot of renovation. They recently completed their second ring metro line (second!) complete with beautiful and unique stations: https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/12/08/moscow-metro-opens-10-new-stations-on-the-big-circle-line-a75758 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/12/08/moscow-metro-opens... It's actually shocking to land there after spending a couple days in NYC. I'd (and many Russians) would argue that there's actually too much investment in Moscow and not enough outside of it. A lot of Westerns have an distorted understanding of what Moscow is actually like due to how it's (intentionally) depicted in Hollywood. If you want to get an idea of what Moscow feels like check YouTube for the "Lost in Moscow" channel and just scroll through a bunch of their videos. Here's an example: https://youtu.be/h6vpRtbuJfM https://youtu.be/h6vpRtbuJfM

richiebful1 4y ago
Agreed. As an American who lived in Moscow, I would consider retiring there if Russia wasn't actively hostile to the West. Excellent public transit, much lower cost of living vs the United States, commuter train (electrichka) access to the countryside

wongarsu 4y ago

The way Russia transitioned from Socialist to Capitalist was a bit of a mess. The widely accepted best practice was to sell state-owned companies to raise capital to operate the state. But Russia didn't want to sell to Western countries for obvious reasons, and citizens from the former Soviet Union weren't well equipped to pay fair prizes. So companies more or less went for pennies to those who could call in the most favors, cementing the corruption that already plagued the USSR. Of course there are also other factors, like Russia spending a bunch on things that it deems strategically necessary, but that don't result in immediate money flows (like subsidizing cites beyond the Ural).