4 ms·

I'm not sure there's an advanced "free market" bealthcare system in the world we can use to even make that comparison.

by DubiousPusher 4y ago

WalterBright 4y ago
The free market produces goods and services at less cost for everything else, why would health care be any different?
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Because health is quite literally priceless.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    So is food. But every country that tried socialist food production reaped famine.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Yes, but food isn't magic and medicine to most people is. Here take this pill and boom life extension is on a different level than this is my carrot and even though I have 100's you can't have any. The first will lead to bankruptcy the second to riots.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > Yes, but food isn't magic and medicine to most people is. The most bizarre argument I've encountered yet.
- Kbelicius 4y ago
  Maybe because often when you need it you can't take the time to shop around like you can with TV and cars.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Very little of health care is delivered through a trip to the emergency room.
    - Kbelicius 4y ago
      Research suggest that nearly half is delivered by emergency departments. So even if it was half of that, your statement would still be an outright lie. What is your source that it is very little?
- Mordisquitos 4y ago
  Because healthcare as a service does not come even close to satisfy the conditions required for perfect competition. Without going too much in detail, the "customers" cannot have perfect information regarding the treatment or course of action that's most convenient for them at a given moment, and they cannot freely decide when (or often whether) to make use of the service or not—"It's probably best I get appendicitis now that I can afford it rather than wait until next year".
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    The free market does not require perfect competition nor perfect information at all. Imperfect information, for example, is called "risk", and risk is factored into every price. Besides, why would you think socialist medicine would provide perfect information?
    - Mordisquitos 4y ago
      > Besides, why would you think socialist medicine would provide perfect information? Where have I come even close to suggesting it would? Perfect information, to the extent it can be possible, is a requirement for a market to be efficient. What you call "socialist medicine" is by definition not a market, so perfect information is a moot point. What universal healthcare can provide is the adequate incentives for providing early diagnosis, promoting preventative medicine, and giving safe and effective treatment. Where are the incentives for early diagnosis and prevention in free market healthcare? Furthermore, pure free market healthcare provides an intrinsic incentive to extract abusive profit from a customer whose life or wellbeing are on the line, and who does not have the knowledge to decide whether they really need this expensive procedure they are being offered. This already happens to an extent under the current U.S. model. There's no reason to assume it wouldn't be even worse under a completely free market.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > Perfect information, to the extent it can be possible, is a requirement for a market to be efficient This is simply not true, as I said, risk factors into every price. > Where are the incentives for early diagnosis and prevention in free market healthcare? Don't you feel any incentive to take care of yourself with early diagnosis and prevention? > pure free market healthcare provides an intrinsic incentive to extract abusive profit from a customer whose life or wellbeing are on the line Just like if you're hungry. But food in a free market is cheap and plentiful. > who does not have the knowledge to decide whether they really need this expensive procedure they are being offered. The beauty of the free market is the consumer gets to decide who to trust. > There's no reason to assume it wouldn't be even worse under a completely free market. The US had a free market in health care up to the 1960s, and there's no evidence of the dark predictions you make for it.
- tremon 4y ago
  The unregulated free market mostly produces goods and services at less cost for the producer, which huge external costs to everything else.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Really? Why then are communist countries the most polluted?
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      Do you actually have anything to say, or are you just going to avoid having to form coherent arguments by saying “what about communism” to anyone who replies to you.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        If the claim is "huge external costs", since those are not quantified, then it's fair to ask "compared to what". So I compared it to communism. If you have something else to compare it to, feel free.
  - jiriknesl 4y ago
    Do you have a proof for such a statement? AFAIK most of negative externalities are either negligible or easy to be sued for. Or a responsibility of informed customer. Of course, there's that ultimate hammer of greenhouse gases everybody is using daily, but besides these it is hard to confirm this. And these have also many positive externalities (access to plastics, cheap energy) that cannot be ignored, otherwise we would live in carbon-zero economy already.
- have_faith 4y ago
  It's not an either-or situation. In the UK we have a socialised health care system with a private health care system available to those that want it. I guess it's a question of how much you care about the plight of people at the bottom of society and how much you see it as a sort of civic duty to increase their access to high quality health care regardless of their life outcomes (low income). I'm lucky that I don't rely on our national health service for everything but I still gladly pay towards it's running so others can use it. Of all the things the government taxes me for directly or indirectly payments towards the national health care service ranks very low on the list of annoyances.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Free health care is very, very expensive.
    - have_faith 4y ago
      So? Governments spend obscene amounts of money on all sorts of things, it's just a case of placing it in your list of priorities.

I'm not sure there's an advanced "free market" bealthcare system in the world we can use to even make that comparison.

WalterBright 4y ago

The free market produces goods and services at less cost for everything else, why would health care be any different?

jacquesm 4y ago
Because health is quite literally priceless.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  So is food. But every country that tried socialist food production reaped famine.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Yes, but food isn't magic and medicine to most people is. Here take this pill and boom life extension is on a different level than this is my carrot and even though I have 100's you can't have any. The first will lead to bankruptcy the second to riots.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > Yes, but food isn't magic and medicine to most people is. The most bizarre argument I've encountered yet.
Kbelicius 4y ago
Maybe because often when you need it you can't take the time to shop around like you can with TV and cars.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Very little of health care is delivered through a trip to the emergency room.
  - Kbelicius 4y ago
    Research suggest that nearly half is delivered by emergency departments. So even if it was half of that, your statement would still be an outright lie. What is your source that it is very little?
Mordisquitos 4y ago
Because healthcare as a service does not come even close to satisfy the conditions required for perfect competition. Without going too much in detail, the "customers" cannot have perfect information regarding the treatment or course of action that's most convenient for them at a given moment, and they cannot freely decide when (or often whether) to make use of the service or not—"It's probably best I get appendicitis now that I can afford it rather than wait until next year".
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The free market does not require perfect competition nor perfect information at all. Imperfect information, for example, is called "risk", and risk is factored into every price. Besides, why would you think socialist medicine would provide perfect information?
  - Mordisquitos 4y ago
    > Besides, why would you think socialist medicine would provide perfect information? Where have I come even close to suggesting it would? Perfect information, to the extent it can be possible, is a requirement for a market to be efficient. What you call "socialist medicine" is by definition not a market, so perfect information is a moot point. What universal healthcare can provide is the adequate incentives for providing early diagnosis, promoting preventative medicine, and giving safe and effective treatment. Where are the incentives for early diagnosis and prevention in free market healthcare? Furthermore, pure free market healthcare provides an intrinsic incentive to extract abusive profit from a customer whose life or wellbeing are on the line, and who does not have the knowledge to decide whether they really need this expensive procedure they are being offered. This already happens to an extent under the current U.S. model. There's no reason to assume it wouldn't be even worse under a completely free market.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      > Perfect information, to the extent it can be possible, is a requirement for a market to be efficient This is simply not true, as I said, risk factors into every price. > Where are the incentives for early diagnosis and prevention in free market healthcare? Don't you feel any incentive to take care of yourself with early diagnosis and prevention? > pure free market healthcare provides an intrinsic incentive to extract abusive profit from a customer whose life or wellbeing are on the line Just like if you're hungry. But food in a free market is cheap and plentiful. > who does not have the knowledge to decide whether they really need this expensive procedure they are being offered. The beauty of the free market is the consumer gets to decide who to trust. > There's no reason to assume it wouldn't be even worse under a completely free market. The US had a free market in health care up to the 1960s, and there's no evidence of the dark predictions you make for it.
tremon 4y ago
The unregulated free market mostly produces goods and services at less cost for the producer, which huge external costs to everything else.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Really? Why then are communist countries the most polluted?
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    Do you actually have anything to say, or are you just going to avoid having to form coherent arguments by saying “what about communism” to anyone who replies to you.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      If the claim is "huge external costs", since those are not quantified, then it's fair to ask "compared to what". So I compared it to communism. If you have something else to compare it to, feel free.
- jiriknesl 4y ago
  Do you have a proof for such a statement? AFAIK most of negative externalities are either negligible or easy to be sued for. Or a responsibility of informed customer. Of course, there's that ultimate hammer of greenhouse gases everybody is using daily, but besides these it is hard to confirm this. And these have also many positive externalities (access to plastics, cheap energy) that cannot be ignored, otherwise we would live in carbon-zero economy already.
have_faith 4y ago
It's not an either-or situation. In the UK we have a socialised health care system with a private health care system available to those that want it. I guess it's a question of how much you care about the plight of people at the bottom of society and how much you see it as a sort of civic duty to increase their access to high quality health care regardless of their life outcomes (low income). I'm lucky that I don't rely on our national health service for everything but I still gladly pay towards it's running so others can use it. Of all the things the government taxes me for directly or indirectly payments towards the national health care service ranks very low on the list of annoyances.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Free health care is very, very expensive.
  - have_faith 4y ago
    So? Governments spend obscene amounts of money on all sorts of things, it's just a case of placing it in your list of priorities.