6 ms·

Immigration is just colonial appropriation. It's the solution proposed by city dwellers who think we should live 50 deep in a square mile of massive cities - ge

Immigration is just colonial appropriation. It's the solution proposed by city dwellers who think we should live 50 deep in a square mile of massive cities - generally an upper middle class who seem to believe they should have constant access to cheap servants they don't have to personally house and look after. Japan already has massive cities. It doesn't work. We need economics that doesn't assume you can always go around the world taking other nations resources - including the people they have schooled and trained to provide for their own population.

roflyear 4y ago
If Japan wants to keep their systems running they need immigration. Or they will have to drastically alter their lifestyles.
- walleeee 4y ago
  We will all have to drastically alter our lifestyles and the longer we wait the harder it'll be
  - roflyear 4y ago
    I agree, but that is really hard. It only comes by force.
- llanowarelves 4y ago
  Why? They will and already are leading the charge on automation. Most people's jobs can be automated. In this way, the US is like the Antebellum South, preferring servants driving their economy instead of adopting advances in tech, like the "North" in this metaphor (Japan) forced the necessity of creating.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Soon their pension and other systems in place to support their aging population will not be able to be supported by those working. Where will the money come from? There needs to be someone there to work. The labor force has to come from somewhere. There are a lot of immigrants looking for jobs. Billions.
    - pauldenton 4y ago
      So Japan needs more people because their pension system is unsustainable. And when all the immigrants who came in get old, Japan will need even more immigration to make up for the immigration they had before, and all the new pensioners. This is not sustainable. This is a Ponzi scheme. Continually kicking the can down the road.
      - roflyear 4y ago
        this is how every country has functioned for many, many years. acting like it is something ridiculous is stupid.
    - blackoil 4y ago
      Or they'll reassess the pension commitments. People may vote to reduce pension by 50%.
satyrnein 4y ago
Accepting immigrants who desperately want to come is nothing like taking resources by force.
- cudgy 4y ago
  True, but the parent post did not mention use of force. We cannot deny that there is a brain drain in many third world countries that desperately need well trained workers that is accelerated by acceptance of immigrants into developed nations like the US. Who’s going to lead these countries into better governance and economic improvement if all the talent is incentivized to leave their home countries for greener pastures?
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Who's going to lead them - they are. It's up to the citizens of those countries to select the government and policies that do not drive away their brains. Usually that means rejecting socialism.
  - satyrnein 4y ago
    Immigration was compared to "colonial appropriation" which doesn't exactly sound voluntary. In contrast, it would be a terrible thing to forcibly lock people into their birth countries to stop brain drain.
    - nicbou 4y ago
      It’s not voluntary to the drained countries
      - satyrnein 4y ago
        Sure it is, unless they have passed laws against emigration, like North Korea. (Of course, those laws would rightly be seen as totalitarian.)
        4y ago
brutusborn 4y ago
What would "economics that doesn't assume you can always go around the world taking other nations resources" look like? You seem to be criticizing a current solution to a problem without suggesting an alternative solution. Edit since I'm getting downvotes: I'll take a stab and hopefully someone will correct me. Do you mean a return to Mercantilism? If we can't have immigration because that is 'taking another nations resources,' then we must end up with some kind of Protectionism or Mercantilism? Or are you proposing a World Government?
- neilwilson 4y ago
  We already have mercantilism. That's what 'export led growth' is. It just works by hoarding money as 'foreign reserves', rather than using protectionism. The entire world can't be using 'export led growth'. There has to be net importers to balance it out. Which currently are the US and the UK - the current and previous imperial nations.
- nicbou 4y ago
  There is no obligation to supply an alternative solution. Engineering taught me to define a problem without thinking of a solution, because it restricts your thinking. That the person above didn’t bring a solution does not invalidate their statement. Immigration is only a solution for those getting the immigrants. It’s not so nice for the countries that raise and educate them without any ROI.
  - bongoman37 4y ago
  - brutusborn 4y ago
    There's no obligation, but criticising the stutus quo without supplying an alternative is just stating that things are bad. Talking about how bad things are is pointless; why not talk about what could make things _better_? If somethings broken and you can't fix it, then you either learn how to fix it or you need to accept that it is broken and move onto something you can fix. P.s. I really like the engineering analogy, but remember when discussing politics: other people have probably already defined the problem and come up with solutions. As a citizen, we need to choose which solution is best; or promote our own solution.
legolas2412 4y ago
> including the people they have schooled and trained to provide for their own population. Oh, I didn't realize I was a slave to a country. And the act of immigration which I willfully do, and the host country is pretty much hostile about, is "stealing" me. If Western countries wanted to steal me, they should not have put up such roadblocks to immigration
- TeeMassive 4y ago
  Brain drain is a real phenomenon and a real problem. Your personal feelings about it are irrelevant.
  - thematrixturtle 4y ago
    It's a "problem" only if you assume nation-states own the brains of their citizens, and have the right to dictate that they stay within their borders. There's a lot of brains draining from Russia right now due to Putin's policies. Should we deport them all back to Russia?
    - Kbelicius 4y ago
      > It's a "problem" only if you assume nation-states own the brains of their citizens It is a problem for a nation-state whether you assume that nation-state owns the brains of their citizens or not. > There's a lot of brains draining from Russia right now due to Putin's policies. Should we deport them all back to Russia? Nobody said anything like that. You should respond to what was written and not to what is in your head.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    If countries don't want a brain drain, perhaps they should adopt more of the policies of countries their brains are escaping to.
    - actually_a_dog 4y ago
      Did you seriously just tell entire countries "have you tried not being poor?"
hahaxdxd123 4y ago
Each paragraph is a non-sequitur from the next. Can you elaborate? > immigration is just colonial appropriation Thank you America for colonially appropriating me from starvation under communism.
bobthechef 4y ago
neilparikh 4y ago
> Japan already has massive cities. It doesn't work. What do you mean by this? Tokyo seems like a pretty successful case to me: relatively affordable housing even with net migration into the city, along with good public transit.

roflyear 4y ago

If Japan wants to keep their systems running they need immigration. Or they will have to drastically alter their lifestyles.

walleeee 4y ago
We will all have to drastically alter our lifestyles and the longer we wait the harder it'll be
- roflyear 4y ago
  I agree, but that is really hard. It only comes by force.
llanowarelves 4y ago
Why? They will and already are leading the charge on automation. Most people's jobs can be automated. In this way, the US is like the Antebellum South, preferring servants driving their economy instead of adopting advances in tech, like the "North" in this metaphor (Japan) forced the necessity of creating.
- roflyear 4y ago
  Soon their pension and other systems in place to support their aging population will not be able to be supported by those working. Where will the money come from? There needs to be someone there to work. The labor force has to come from somewhere. There are a lot of immigrants looking for jobs. Billions.
  - pauldenton 4y ago
    So Japan needs more people because their pension system is unsustainable. And when all the immigrants who came in get old, Japan will need even more immigration to make up for the immigration they had before, and all the new pensioners. This is not sustainable. This is a Ponzi scheme. Continually kicking the can down the road.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      this is how every country has functioned for many, many years. acting like it is something ridiculous is stupid.
  - blackoil 4y ago
    Or they'll reassess the pension commitments. People may vote to reduce pension by 50%.

satyrnein 4y ago

Accepting immigrants who desperately want to come is nothing like taking resources by force.

cudgy 4y ago
True, but the parent post did not mention use of force. We cannot deny that there is a brain drain in many third world countries that desperately need well trained workers that is accelerated by acceptance of immigrants into developed nations like the US. Who’s going to lead these countries into better governance and economic improvement if all the talent is incentivized to leave their home countries for greener pastures?
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Who's going to lead them - they are. It's up to the citizens of those countries to select the government and policies that do not drive away their brains. Usually that means rejecting socialism.
- satyrnein 4y ago
  Immigration was compared to "colonial appropriation" which doesn't exactly sound voluntary. In contrast, it would be a terrible thing to forcibly lock people into their birth countries to stop brain drain.
  - nicbou 4y ago
    It’s not voluntary to the drained countries
    - satyrnein 4y ago
      Sure it is, unless they have passed laws against emigration, like North Korea. (Of course, those laws would rightly be seen as totalitarian.)
      - 4y ago

brutusborn 4y ago

What would "economics that doesn't assume you can always go around the world taking other nations resources" look like? You seem to be criticizing a current solution to a problem without suggesting an alternative solution. Edit since I'm getting downvotes: I'll take a stab and hopefully someone will correct me. Do you mean a return to Mercantilism? If we can't have immigration because that is 'taking another nations resources,' then we must end up with some kind of Protectionism or Mercantilism? Or are you proposing a World Government?

neilwilson 4y ago
We already have mercantilism. That's what 'export led growth' is. It just works by hoarding money as 'foreign reserves', rather than using protectionism. The entire world can't be using 'export led growth'. There has to be net importers to balance it out. Which currently are the US and the UK - the current and previous imperial nations.
nicbou 4y ago
There is no obligation to supply an alternative solution. Engineering taught me to define a problem without thinking of a solution, because it restricts your thinking. That the person above didn’t bring a solution does not invalidate their statement. Immigration is only a solution for those getting the immigrants. It’s not so nice for the countries that raise and educate them without any ROI.
- bongoman37 4y ago
- brutusborn 4y ago
  There's no obligation, but criticising the stutus quo without supplying an alternative is just stating that things are bad. Talking about how bad things are is pointless; why not talk about what could make things _better_? If somethings broken and you can't fix it, then you either learn how to fix it or you need to accept that it is broken and move onto something you can fix. P.s. I really like the engineering analogy, but remember when discussing politics: other people have probably already defined the problem and come up with solutions. As a citizen, we need to choose which solution is best; or promote our own solution.

legolas2412 4y ago

> including the people they have schooled and trained to provide for their own population. Oh, I didn't realize I was a slave to a country. And the act of immigration which I willfully do, and the host country is pretty much hostile about, is "stealing" me. If Western countries wanted to steal me, they should not have put up such roadblocks to immigration

TeeMassive 4y ago
Brain drain is a real phenomenon and a real problem. Your personal feelings about it are irrelevant.
- thematrixturtle 4y ago
  It's a "problem" only if you assume nation-states own the brains of their citizens, and have the right to dictate that they stay within their borders. There's a lot of brains draining from Russia right now due to Putin's policies. Should we deport them all back to Russia?
  - Kbelicius 4y ago
    > It's a "problem" only if you assume nation-states own the brains of their citizens It is a problem for a nation-state whether you assume that nation-state owns the brains of their citizens or not. > There's a lot of brains draining from Russia right now due to Putin's policies. Should we deport them all back to Russia? Nobody said anything like that. You should respond to what was written and not to what is in your head.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  If countries don't want a brain drain, perhaps they should adopt more of the policies of countries their brains are escaping to.
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    Did you seriously just tell entire countries "have you tried not being poor?"

hahaxdxd123 4y ago

Each paragraph is a non-sequitur from the next. Can you elaborate? > immigration is just colonial appropriation Thank you America for colonially appropriating me from starvation under communism.

bobthechef 4y ago

neilparikh 4y ago

> Japan already has massive cities. It doesn't work. What do you mean by this? Tokyo seems like a pretty successful case to me: relatively affordable housing even with net migration into the city, along with good public transit.