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In the same sense any rights are “entirely up for discussion”. Is that your point? — that because we had slavery, slavery is “entirely up for discussion”?

pessimizer 4y ago
No, in a different sense, because the right to not have other people's choices imposed on you is a made-up right. The rights you have were decided upon by people who aren't you, and imposed on you. I'm theoretically sympathetic to your wanting to opt out of public services, but it's too onerous to have to maintain lists of houses not to put out if they're on fire.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  > the right to not have other people's choices imposed on you is a made-up right You just said the right to not be a slave is a made-up right. > it's too onerous to have to maintain lists of houses not to put out if they're on fire So don’t? — but you’re losing me at the point you go from “I save money by not tracking exceptions” to “I have the right to make you participate because I want your money”.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    If you consider obeying the law equivalent to slavery, then I absolutely am saying that. The law is other people's choices imposed upon you.
    - zmgsabst 4y ago
      Sure — as is slavery. Which is my point: you’re not differentiating between the two, while asserting that you don’t have the same rights in one case. Slavery was also the law.
- tremon 4y ago
  I'm less sympathetic: I wouldn't want to live next to a house that has opted out of sewage service.
- trashtester 4y ago
  > because the right to not have other people's choices imposed on you is a made-up right I agree with this statement. Actually, I consider this more of a principle than a right. Society should aim to minimize the degree to which it imposes the will of the government on the citizens, not fundamentally because freedom is an a priori right, but because it leads to a more peaceful society. A society where the citizens do not tolerate would be tyrants that want to excessively dictate how people live, tends to be (EDIT) more stable, innovative or economically competitive over time. Citizens of a freedom-loving society may not all understand this from first principles. Even if most believe they have such a right somewhat dogmatically, it may still have the same outcome. Dogmatism may come with the downside of seeing people with different opinions as evil, though, and may sometimes lead to needless conflict.
trashtester 4y ago
> Is that your point? — that because we had slavery, slavery is “entirely up for discussion”? That discussion has been settled in the West, at least for now. In many places, the discussion is still ongoing, and in fact, they are an estimated 40 million slaves (or similarly bonded people) on Earth today, or about 10x as many as in the US South in 1860. I find it a bit funny that in an increasingly atheistic society, some Christian values are held even more axiomatically than ever before, and racism is particular Statues of American founders get torn down due to some link to it. Imagine if everything around the world with some link to forced labor would be given the same treatment. We would have to remove almost every ancient monument or statue from Italy, Greece, Egypt, the Middle East, India, China, former Aztec and Inka peoples, just to mention a few. Also most ancient works of writing, from all over the globe would have to be given introduction with warning that the author may have owned slaves or benefitted from slave labor. I'm not American. I did not grow up with the legacy of American slavery. By no means do I endorse slavery, but when reading about Aristotle's ideas about slavery, I'm able to imagine a world where slavery is seen as normal. In many cases, those who lost some war would end up as slaves. But typically, that would go both ways. Whichever side won would enslave the other. I have trouble seeing almost every inhabitant of classical Europe, the Middle East or North Africa as evil just because they either did own slaves, or would have owned slaves had they been able to. Just like I have trouble seeing a Lion or Hyena as evil for eating a Zebra. (Ok, maybe I can see the Hyena as evil, mainly because they're ugly ;)

pessimizer 4y ago

No, in a different sense, because the right to not have other people's choices imposed on you is a made-up right. The rights you have were decided upon by people who aren't you, and imposed on you. I'm theoretically sympathetic to your wanting to opt out of public services, but it's too onerous to have to maintain lists of houses not to put out if they're on fire.

zmgsabst 4y ago
> the right to not have other people's choices imposed on you is a made-up right You just said the right to not be a slave is a made-up right. > it's too onerous to have to maintain lists of houses not to put out if they're on fire So don’t? — but you’re losing me at the point you go from “I save money by not tracking exceptions” to “I have the right to make you participate because I want your money”.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  If you consider obeying the law equivalent to slavery, then I absolutely am saying that. The law is other people's choices imposed upon you.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    Sure — as is slavery. Which is my point: you’re not differentiating between the two, while asserting that you don’t have the same rights in one case. Slavery was also the law.
tremon 4y ago
I'm less sympathetic: I wouldn't want to live next to a house that has opted out of sewage service.
trashtester 4y ago
> because the right to not have other people's choices imposed on you is a made-up right I agree with this statement. Actually, I consider this more of a principle than a right. Society should aim to minimize the degree to which it imposes the will of the government on the citizens, not fundamentally because freedom is an a priori right, but because it leads to a more peaceful society. A society where the citizens do not tolerate would be tyrants that want to excessively dictate how people live, tends to be (EDIT) more stable, innovative or economically competitive over time. Citizens of a freedom-loving society may not all understand this from first principles. Even if most believe they have such a right somewhat dogmatically, it may still have the same outcome. Dogmatism may come with the downside of seeing people with different opinions as evil, though, and may sometimes lead to needless conflict.

trashtester 4y ago

> Is that your point? — that because we had slavery, slavery is “entirely up for discussion”? That discussion has been settled in the West, at least for now. In many places, the discussion is still ongoing, and in fact, they are an estimated 40 million slaves (or similarly bonded people) on Earth today, or about 10x as many as in the US South in 1860. I find it a bit funny that in an increasingly atheistic society, some Christian values are held even more axiomatically than ever before, and racism is particular Statues of American founders get torn down due to some link to it. Imagine if everything around the world with some link to forced labor would be given the same treatment. We would have to remove almost every ancient monument or statue from Italy, Greece, Egypt, the Middle East, India, China, former Aztec and Inka peoples, just to mention a few. Also most ancient works of writing, from all over the globe would have to be given introduction with warning that the author may have owned slaves or benefitted from slave labor. I'm not American. I did not grow up with the legacy of American slavery. By no means do I endorse slavery, but when reading about Aristotle's ideas about slavery, I'm able to imagine a world where slavery is seen as normal. In many cases, those who lost some war would end up as slaves. But typically, that would go both ways. Whichever side won would enslave the other. I have trouble seeing almost every inhabitant of classical Europe, the Middle East or North Africa as evil just because they either did own slaves, or would have owned slaves had they been able to. Just like I have trouble seeing a Lion or Hyena as evil for eating a Zebra. (Ok, maybe I can see the Hyena as evil, mainly because they're ugly ;)