10 ms·

It seems like for all the effort we've put into stopping terrorism it's primarily being used against our own citizens rather than to stop any actual terrorism.

NaturalPhallacy 4y ago
It only happens every single time.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
There is no incentive to stop terrorists beyond doing the bare minimum to cover one's ass. It's not like anything bad happens for the government. They just get more power every time.
- nickff 4y ago
  The most extreme examples of this are countries like Pakistan, which derive a great deal of foreign aid from their ongoing 'conflicts' with terror-related groups in outlying territory. Pakistan has very little incentive to ever 'win'.
bhaney 4y ago
It's such a shame that nobody predicted exactly that
- slfnflctd 4y ago
  Russ Feingold will always have major points for this in my book. Only senator to vote against the 'Patriot Act'.
  - lampshades 4y ago
    I was just curious because I'd never heard or thought about who voted for the Patriot Act. I don't even know who Feingold is but he gets points in my book now too. If anyone else is interested, here is the actual vote: https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1071/vote_107_1_00313.htm https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1...
    - filoeleven 4y ago
      Along the same lines, folks interested in this will also like learning about Rep. Barbara Lee, the only person in Congress to vote against the 2001 Authorized Use of Military Force after 9/11. > She "warned her colleagues to be 'careful not to embark on an open-ended war with neither an exit strategy nor a focused target'". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Lee#AUMF_opposition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Lee#AUMF_opposition The Radiolab podcast episode is IMO the best way to hear the telling. The link is to their re-release, which has a bit extra at the end IIRC. https://radiolab.org/episodes/60-words-20-years https://radiolab.org/episodes/60-words-20-years
dmitrygr 4y ago
That is working as intended. Terrorism and "think of the children" fearmongering were never intended to do anything about terrorism or child abuse. They simply aren't designed for that.
dewclin 4y ago
A feature, not a bug.
ars 4y ago
And used against Trump, and similar. There's a reason people were very upset he was kicked off of Twitter - not because they care in the slightest about Trump, but because it's starting us down a path with a very bad ending.
- otikik 4y ago
  He broke the TOS repeatedly, and since the beginning. Twitter was in the wrong because he should have been kicked out way sooner.
- kube-system 4y ago
  Trump was not kicked off of Twitter for any reasons remotely related to terrorism.
  - dalmo3 4y ago
    "Hate speech", "misinformation", "defending democracy" are other meaningless umbrella terms just as much as "terrorism", weaponised for the same ends.
    - kube-system 4y ago
      That doesn't make them related.
    - FireBeyond 4y ago
      Trump has made many concrete incitements to violence. Telling his supporters to "rough someone up", "someone should punch that person, I'll pay your legal bills", "maybe some of you second amendment folk can do something about Hillary".
  - idontpost 4y ago
    - sneak 4y ago
      I think this might be the first modern event described as a "terrorist attack" conducted almost entirely without meaningful weapons or explosives or incendiary devices. Either that or calling a rioting mob a "terrorist attack" is hyperbole.
jandrese 4y ago
The majority of the time the terrorists are our own citizens. This story is obviously an abuse of the system, but if this stopped natural born citizens who were planning to lock the doors of a busy nightclub and set it on fire it would be doing its job. But even the system is only partially to blame here. It's really the corrupt employee and lack of oversight that is to blame. The system did allow the corruption to spread to other companies, but even if it was confined to Meta that would still be a lot of damage.
- chaps 4y ago
  So the issue here is that anybody can contribute without oversight. Sounds a lot like the issue with that Tay bot, whose contributions led to it being anti-Semitic and all that. I'd argue that its lack of oversight to prevent that sort of abuse is a fundamental problem with the system and not a partial point of fault.
  - jandrese 4y ago
    This wasn't a case of "anybody contributing", they literally bought off a Meta employee to do this. Well, I guess anybody can commit a crime, but that's not a fundamental weakness of the law.
    - chaps 4y ago
      Good point, but I think my overall point stands, since the "system" is still inclusive of the processes on top of the submission or in this case, the lack of process. Lots of red flags going on here when thousands of people can be added without notification within gov and really speaks to the capabilities of a company's "extra judicial" tooling.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  > lock the doors of a busy nightclub and set it on fire Has it ever? Is there a terrorist watchlist at the doors of nightclubs now? It would also be great if it cured cancer or replaced crumbling infrastructure, but why talk about nonsense?
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
Do you have a source to back up that claim?
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
If this story spreads, they'll be using "children" ("protect the", "-porn",...) to act against normal people for some time, then back to terrorism.
- eastbound 4y ago
  Then women: “It is important to be able to bypass all courts of law and be able to pronounce judgements at a whim, because a mother died after due process took too long.” However, I wonder whether this is organized or organic. Is it an emergent property of population density, or is it determined by culture? - 1 inhabitant/km2 = witch trials, tribe judgements, - 10 hab/km2 = beginnings of court justice, - 100 hab/km2 = politically-knee-jerk justice, - 1000 hab/km2 = Chinese or Japanese-style justice Or perhaps it is related to the age of the current country?
mbesto 4y ago
I think I agree with you sentiment, but let me ask this: If terrorism was being stopped, would you even know it? Said differently, maybe it is working. If it was, what would be the way that you would know that it is working?
- klyrs 4y ago
  > If terrorism was being stopped, would you even know it? Yes, because the feds brag about it nonstop on the rare occasions they actually nab somebody.
  - feet 4y ago
    Exactly. Somehow we know how they use these systems for parallel construction yet we don't hear a peep about actual terrorists being stopped.
  - phpisthebest 4y ago
    Even when they were the ones that Planned, and started the process only to "swoop" in to save the day like an arsonist firefighter
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      No, so the fact that we see those over and over again is evidence that they have nothing to brag about.
      - phpisthebest 4y ago
        To me it is evidence we need massive reform in the FBI and several other Agencies, and a rebalance of entrapment laws to favor the citizenry not the government
    - CrazyPyroLinux 4y ago
      "FBI Foils FBI terror plot!" Happened in Michigan, too.
- 4y ago
okwubodu 4y ago
Americans across the political spectrum are generally very okay with invasions of privacy, excessive force, rights violations, etc. as long as they’re targeted at the “right” people (criminals that deserve it). They’re incredibly difficult issues to advocate for because most people either a) think the victim deserved it for being a criminal, or b) would eventually think the same given a wide enough selection of victims.
- jimbob45 4y ago
  We're okay with it when we see exceptional results. When, instead, you see a school shooter's search history includes "I'm going to shoot up X school" and the FBI claims that they couldn't have foreseen it happening, then it starts to seem as if the results aren't as exceptional as they claim.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
  It's the just world fallacy writ large.
deleted 4y ago
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deleted 4y ago
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vkou 4y ago
Actually, most of that effort has been put towards invading other countries. The effort put towards dealing with domestic terrorists (real or imagined) is comparatively small.
tootie 4y ago
This wasn't a government watchlist. It's an independent nonprofit shared by social media companies.

NaturalPhallacy 4y ago

It only happens every single time.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

There is no incentive to stop terrorists beyond doing the bare minimum to cover one's ass. It's not like anything bad happens for the government. They just get more power every time.

nickff 4y ago
The most extreme examples of this are countries like Pakistan, which derive a great deal of foreign aid from their ongoing 'conflicts' with terror-related groups in outlying territory. Pakistan has very little incentive to ever 'win'.

bhaney 4y ago

It's such a shame that nobody predicted exactly that

slfnflctd 4y ago
Russ Feingold will always have major points for this in my book. Only senator to vote against the 'Patriot Act'.
- lampshades 4y ago
  I was just curious because I'd never heard or thought about who voted for the Patriot Act. I don't even know who Feingold is but he gets points in my book now too. If anyone else is interested, here is the actual vote: https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1071/vote_107_1_00313.htm https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_votes/vote1...
  - filoeleven 4y ago
    Along the same lines, folks interested in this will also like learning about Rep. Barbara Lee, the only person in Congress to vote against the 2001 Authorized Use of Military Force after 9/11. > She "warned her colleagues to be 'careful not to embark on an open-ended war with neither an exit strategy nor a focused target'". https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Lee#AUMF_opposition https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Lee#AUMF_opposition The Radiolab podcast episode is IMO the best way to hear the telling. The link is to their re-release, which has a bit extra at the end IIRC. https://radiolab.org/episodes/60-words-20-years https://radiolab.org/episodes/60-words-20-years

dmitrygr 4y ago

That is working as intended. Terrorism and "think of the children" fearmongering were never intended to do anything about terrorism or child abuse. They simply aren't designed for that.

dewclin 4y ago

A feature, not a bug.

ars 4y ago

And used against Trump, and similar. There's a reason people were very upset he was kicked off of Twitter - not because they care in the slightest about Trump, but because it's starting us down a path with a very bad ending.

otikik 4y ago
He broke the TOS repeatedly, and since the beginning. Twitter was in the wrong because he should have been kicked out way sooner.
kube-system 4y ago
Trump was not kicked off of Twitter for any reasons remotely related to terrorism.
- dalmo3 4y ago
  "Hate speech", "misinformation", "defending democracy" are other meaningless umbrella terms just as much as "terrorism", weaponised for the same ends.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    That doesn't make them related.
  - FireBeyond 4y ago
    Trump has made many concrete incitements to violence. Telling his supporters to "rough someone up", "someone should punch that person, I'll pay your legal bills", "maybe some of you second amendment folk can do something about Hillary".
- idontpost 4y ago
  - sneak 4y ago
    I think this might be the first modern event described as a "terrorist attack" conducted almost entirely without meaningful weapons or explosives or incendiary devices. Either that or calling a rioting mob a "terrorist attack" is hyperbole.

jandrese 4y ago

The majority of the time the terrorists are our own citizens. This story is obviously an abuse of the system, but if this stopped natural born citizens who were planning to lock the doors of a busy nightclub and set it on fire it would be doing its job. But even the system is only partially to blame here. It's really the corrupt employee and lack of oversight that is to blame. The system did allow the corruption to spread to other companies, but even if it was confined to Meta that would still be a lot of damage.

chaps 4y ago
So the issue here is that anybody can contribute without oversight. Sounds a lot like the issue with that Tay bot, whose contributions led to it being anti-Semitic and all that. I'd argue that its lack of oversight to prevent that sort of abuse is a fundamental problem with the system and not a partial point of fault.
- jandrese 4y ago
  This wasn't a case of "anybody contributing", they literally bought off a Meta employee to do this. Well, I guess anybody can commit a crime, but that's not a fundamental weakness of the law.
  - chaps 4y ago
    Good point, but I think my overall point stands, since the "system" is still inclusive of the processes on top of the submission or in this case, the lack of process. Lots of red flags going on here when thousands of people can be added without notification within gov and really speaks to the capabilities of a company's "extra judicial" tooling.
pessimizer 4y ago
> lock the doors of a busy nightclub and set it on fire Has it ever? Is there a terrorist watchlist at the doors of nightclubs now? It would also be great if it cured cancer or replaced crumbling infrastructure, but why talk about nonsense?

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

Do you have a source to back up that claim?

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

If this story spreads, they'll be using "children" ("protect the", "-porn",...) to act against normal people for some time, then back to terrorism.

eastbound 4y ago
Then women: “It is important to be able to bypass all courts of law and be able to pronounce judgements at a whim, because a mother died after due process took too long.” However, I wonder whether this is organized or organic. Is it an emergent property of population density, or is it determined by culture? - 1 inhabitant/km2 = witch trials, tribe judgements, - 10 hab/km2 = beginnings of court justice, - 100 hab/km2 = politically-knee-jerk justice, - 1000 hab/km2 = Chinese or Japanese-style justice Or perhaps it is related to the age of the current country?

mbesto 4y ago

I think I agree with you sentiment, but let me ask this: If terrorism was being stopped, would you even know it? Said differently, maybe it is working. If it was, what would be the way that you would know that it is working?

klyrs 4y ago
> If terrorism was being stopped, would you even know it? Yes, because the feds brag about it nonstop on the rare occasions they actually nab somebody.
- feet 4y ago
  Exactly. Somehow we know how they use these systems for parallel construction yet we don't hear a peep about actual terrorists being stopped.
- phpisthebest 4y ago
  Even when they were the ones that Planned, and started the process only to "swoop" in to save the day like an arsonist firefighter
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    No, so the fact that we see those over and over again is evidence that they have nothing to brag about.
    - phpisthebest 4y ago
      To me it is evidence we need massive reform in the FBI and several other Agencies, and a rebalance of entrapment laws to favor the citizenry not the government
  - CrazyPyroLinux 4y ago
    "FBI Foils FBI terror plot!" Happened in Michigan, too.
4y ago

okwubodu 4y ago

Americans across the political spectrum are generally very okay with invasions of privacy, excessive force, rights violations, etc. as long as they’re targeted at the “right” people (criminals that deserve it). They’re incredibly difficult issues to advocate for because most people either a) think the victim deserved it for being a criminal, or b) would eventually think the same given a wide enough selection of victims.

jimbob45 4y ago
We're okay with it when we see exceptional results. When, instead, you see a school shooter's search history includes "I'm going to shoot up X school" and the FBI claims that they couldn't have foreseen it happening, then it starts to seem as if the results aren't as exceptional as they claim.
MonkeyMalarky 4y ago
It's the just world fallacy writ large.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

vkou 4y ago

Actually, most of that effort has been put towards invading other countries. The effort put towards dealing with domestic terrorists (real or imagined) is comparatively small.

tootie 4y ago

This wasn't a government watchlist. It's an independent nonprofit shared by social media companies.