4 ms·

So far the play more seems to be "demonize 'wokeness' and use it to drum up support for undermining and defunding institutions, then blame their failures on the

So far the play more seems to be "demonize 'wokeness' and use it to drum up support for undermining and defunding institutions, then blame their failures on the wokeness alone." > Until then, colleges will continue not caring whether they’re preparing students well for the workforce or merely puffing them full of the latest political buzzwords. What colleges should care about re their students' preparedness for different vocations remains a somewhat open question: that their role is to prepare students for the workforce is a popular view but not the only mainstream one. If you're going to caricature one end of that spectrum as "puffing them full of buzzwords" then the other should be described as vocational training. I think most people would agree that a college education should have some amount of both professional preparedness and abstract learning for its own sake. Why so many outsiders feel so invested in where these institutions find balance here is confusing and unsettling to me. There are something like five thousand colleges in the US, many of them originally founded explicitly to pursue or reject a specific ideal of what is worth learning and how. I didn't pay attention to any of those controversies, conflicts and schisms and iirc neither did the national media.

deepdriver 4y ago
Overfunding via federally-guaranteed loans is what led to bloated administrations and tuition fees in the first place, so yes it ought to be rolled back. A lot of the “woke” stuff comes from diversity equity and inclusion staff who are part and parcel of the bloat, and constantly seeking to justify their own position: https://www.fox28spokane.com/study-shows-university-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-programs-ineffective-overstaffed/ https://www.fox28spokane.com/study-shows-university-diversit... You're also begging the question by implying ideological coercion is just "abstract learning."
- revolvingocelot 4y ago
  >>I think most people would agree that a college education should have some amount of both professional preparedness and abstract learning for its own sake >You're also begging the question by implying ideological coercion is just "abstract learning." I'm actually fucking astonished. Peak orange website -- the "liberal" in "liberal arts" doesn't actually refer to a political standpoint. It refers to exposure to a broad selection of Western intellectual tradition, the better to help students become more informed citizens, and to help prevent/allow detection of gross category errors/intentional facetious conflations like the parent post.
  - deepdriver 4y ago
    Yes, and? Conflating wokeness with all that’s good about a liberal arts education per se is what the comment I replied to did, that’s how it begged the question and why I pointed it out. Reading comprehension and understanding of the term “begging the question” are some of the skills I treasure from my own liberal arts education.
    - revolvingocelot 4y ago
      Conflating a liberal arts education per se with wokeness is what you've done, by merely asserting that it's so, in your root level comment. That's called "begging the question"! In that comment, you suggest that colleges' healthy function is "preparing students well for the workforce", and imply there's currently extant failure mode that's "merely puffing them full of the latest political buzzwords" [0]. One doesn't need to explicitly state one's disrespect for the didactic function of post-secondary education, in favour of a purely vocational one; it's clear with a little reading comprehension. 'giraffe_lady's interpretation seems correct, and nor does your reply contest the structure of their comment, which assumes that you believe in what you wrote above about vocational preparation. Now, though, you cudgel me with the suggestion that no, actually, you totally do value the liberal arts, and it's my fault that I didn't hallucinate your support for that position while you argue for workplace prep. I, myself, usually argue in a manner consistent with my own previous views. It's a Western value -- intellectual honesty -- often highlighted in liberal arts coursework. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32416829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32416829
  - transcriptase 4y ago
    Broad selection… curated, taught, and graded by people with certain viewpoints which have been increasingly shifting toward the extreme end of one side of the political spectrum (whether they believe it, or are simply playing it safe)… churning out generations of graduates who just happen to come out the other side with the exact same viewpoints and a distinct lack of tolerance for anyone who doesn’t agree with the ideologies they were exposed to.
    - deleted 4y ago
headsoup 4y ago
> many of them originally founded explicitly to pursue or reject a specific ideal of what is worth learning and how. I didn't pay attention to any of those controversies, conflicts and schisms and iirc neither did the national media Is that the case now though?
rayiner 4y ago
> Why so many outsiders feel so invested in where these institutions find balance here is confusing and unsettling to me. Because they’re publicly funded or subsidized—and seeking even more funding—under the premise that they will help students find jobs. Just about nobody is voting to have tax dollars go to schools so kids can learn social science buzzwords.

deepdriver 4y ago

Overfunding via federally-guaranteed loans is what led to bloated administrations and tuition fees in the first place, so yes it ought to be rolled back. A lot of the “woke” stuff comes from diversity equity and inclusion staff who are part and parcel of the bloat, and constantly seeking to justify their own position: https://www.fox28spokane.com/study-shows-university-diversity-equity-and-inclusion-programs-ineffective-overstaffed/ https://www.fox28spokane.com/study-shows-university-diversit... You're also begging the question by implying ideological coercion is just "abstract learning."

revolvingocelot 4y ago
>>I think most people would agree that a college education should have some amount of both professional preparedness and abstract learning for its own sake >You're also begging the question by implying ideological coercion is just "abstract learning." I'm actually fucking astonished. Peak orange website -- the "liberal" in "liberal arts" doesn't actually refer to a political standpoint. It refers to exposure to a broad selection of Western intellectual tradition, the better to help students become more informed citizens, and to help prevent/allow detection of gross category errors/intentional facetious conflations like the parent post.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  Yes, and? Conflating wokeness with all that’s good about a liberal arts education per se is what the comment I replied to did, that’s how it begged the question and why I pointed it out. Reading comprehension and understanding of the term “begging the question” are some of the skills I treasure from my own liberal arts education.
  - revolvingocelot 4y ago
    Conflating a liberal arts education per se with wokeness is what you've done, by merely asserting that it's so, in your root level comment. That's called "begging the question"! In that comment, you suggest that colleges' healthy function is "preparing students well for the workforce", and imply there's currently extant failure mode that's "merely puffing them full of the latest political buzzwords" [0]. One doesn't need to explicitly state one's disrespect for the didactic function of post-secondary education, in favour of a purely vocational one; it's clear with a little reading comprehension. 'giraffe_lady's interpretation seems correct, and nor does your reply contest the structure of their comment, which assumes that you believe in what you wrote above about vocational preparation. Now, though, you cudgel me with the suggestion that no, actually, you totally do value the liberal arts, and it's my fault that I didn't hallucinate your support for that position while you argue for workplace prep. I, myself, usually argue in a manner consistent with my own previous views. It's a Western value -- intellectual honesty -- often highlighted in liberal arts coursework. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32416829 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32416829
- transcriptase 4y ago
  Broad selection… curated, taught, and graded by people with certain viewpoints which have been increasingly shifting toward the extreme end of one side of the political spectrum (whether they believe it, or are simply playing it safe)… churning out generations of graduates who just happen to come out the other side with the exact same viewpoints and a distinct lack of tolerance for anyone who doesn’t agree with the ideologies they were exposed to.
  - deleted 4y ago

headsoup 4y ago

> many of them originally founded explicitly to pursue or reject a specific ideal of what is worth learning and how. I didn't pay attention to any of those controversies, conflicts and schisms and iirc neither did the national media Is that the case now though?

rayiner 4y ago

> Why so many outsiders feel so invested in where these institutions find balance here is confusing and unsettling to me. Because they’re publicly funded or subsidized—and seeking even more funding—under the premise that they will help students find jobs. Just about nobody is voting to have tax dollars go to schools so kids can learn social science buzzwords.