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It’s fantasy because it’s just not how the world works. Territories aren’t just up and leaving Canada because there isn’t a body like our Senate. I cannot think

It’s fantasy because it’s just not how the world works. Territories aren’t just up and leaving Canada because there isn’t a body like our Senate. I cannot think of any territory within any developed nation successfully leaving the country. You have to look at like colonial powers losing colonies or perhaps the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Very, very different material conditions than the idea of Maine leaving because there isn’t a Senate. Individual states do not have the resources to oppose our military. They may be larger than European countries, but they don’t have the military power of those European countries and our country’s military is stronger than the entire EU. Even if a state like Texas were to revolt, it would be notably less successful than Ukraine is versus Russia. Also never mind that this revolting state wouldn’t be receiving foreign aid (I don’t think even hostile countries like China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea would even attempt to get involved in an internal conflict). It is pure fantasy to believe an individual state could succeed in seceding from the US. Now could a large enough coalition of states succeed? Sure. But I was responding to the parent’s idea that Maine or Alaska or Hawaii would just randomly decide to up and go because they didn’t have the Senate.

pauldenton 4y ago
If you look into the history of the Confederation of Canada, smaller provinces did have these concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Prince_Edward_Island#Overview_of_federal_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Prince_Edward_Isla... "Under the Canadian Constitution, Prince Edward Island is entitled to four seats in the Senate of Canada, and a corresponding minimum of four seats in the House of Commons of Canada. This results in PEI being considerably overrepresented in the current House, as six of Canada's ten provinces are to varying degrees." 6 out of 10 Canadian provinces are over-represented, like Wyoming, Rhode Island or Alaska
stuckinhell 4y ago
America is not the world. Individual States in america have state guards, and civilians in america are armed to the teeth. There are active militias in many states. Sure federal government could nuclear bomb a state,but then that has different issues. The united states military couldn't even win in Afghanistan. Many american states are bigger than most European countries! Red state civilians make up most of the armed forces, and mercenary groups. This is all on top of a technological society very very fragile.(https://www.wsj.com/articles/assault-on-california-power-station-raises-alarm-on-potential-for-terrorism-1391570879 https://www.wsj.com/articles/assault-on-california-power-sta...) It only takes very few trained operators to take out grids/city networks and cause millions in damage. I think you very much underestimate the reality of succession in America.
koheripbal 4y ago
> Territories aren’t just up and leaving Canada It is a bit funny that you mentioned Canada - given that Quebec barely voted down independence by a 0.2% margin in 1995. Something that would have been a disaster for Canada to be literally split in THREE pieces. ..and it may very well have led to armed conflict as violence in separatist violence in Quebec was not uncommon. Separatist movements are very very often superstitiously supported by foreign rivals and it is worth quite a bit of political power to physically keep you nation together. > Individual states do not have the resources to oppose our military. They do not need to. When independence movements are militarily squashed, that is when foreign rivals step in officially to fund and supply weapons to them. It happened in Kosovo, Taiwan, Donbass, South Ossentia, etc.. > I don’t think even hostile countries like China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea would even attempt to get involved in an internal conflict I hesitate to even reply to this comment. I think you know, reading it, how wrong it is.
- divided 4y ago
  Yes, I’m aware of Quebec’s history (and other provinces/territories threaten it these days). But the same thing happens in the US and having a Senate hasn’t changed that. That was the original point, our Senate/Electoral College isn’t keeping our states in the US. Just like a lack of a US-style Senate isn’t causing Quebec and others to flee Canada. It’s the original point I was trying to make about how this is magical thinking and ignores what history around the world shows us. The examples given are a far cry from a situation like a US state leaving. A couple are Russian-armed separatists from neighboring countries. No state’s relationship to the US at all resembles Taiwan’s to China. And Kosovo is in a region that has dealt with strife since the early 1990’s. A state seceding from the US would look very different than these. Perhaps they would try to give aid covertly, but they wouldn’t risk a hot war. Intervening in a state seceding would be seen as a direct attack on US soil, very different than us aiding Ukraine or Russia aiding Syria.
  - ethbr0 4y ago
    I think you're discounting second order effects of the Senate. Why is the US as culturally-homogeneous as it is? Because small states' population's interests are represented. How are they represented...?

pauldenton 4y ago

If you look into the history of the Confederation of Canada, smaller provinces did have these concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Prince_Edward_Island#Overview_of_federal_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Prince_Edward_Isla... "Under the Canadian Constitution, Prince Edward Island is entitled to four seats in the Senate of Canada, and a corresponding minimum of four seats in the House of Commons of Canada. This results in PEI being considerably overrepresented in the current House, as six of Canada's ten provinces are to varying degrees." 6 out of 10 Canadian provinces are over-represented, like Wyoming, Rhode Island or Alaska

stuckinhell 4y ago

America is not the world. Individual States in america have state guards, and civilians in america are armed to the teeth. There are active militias in many states. Sure federal government could nuclear bomb a state,but then that has different issues. The united states military couldn't even win in Afghanistan. Many american states are bigger than most European countries! Red state civilians make up most of the armed forces, and mercenary groups. This is all on top of a technological society very very fragile.(https://www.wsj.com/articles/assault-on-california-power-station-raises-alarm-on-potential-for-terrorism-1391570879 https://www.wsj.com/articles/assault-on-california-power-sta...) It only takes very few trained operators to take out grids/city networks and cause millions in damage. I think you very much underestimate the reality of succession in America.

koheripbal 4y ago

> Territories aren’t just up and leaving Canada It is a bit funny that you mentioned Canada - given that Quebec barely voted down independence by a 0.2% margin in 1995. Something that would have been a disaster for Canada to be literally split in THREE pieces. ..and it may very well have led to armed conflict as violence in separatist violence in Quebec was not uncommon. Separatist movements are very very often superstitiously supported by foreign rivals and it is worth quite a bit of political power to physically keep you nation together. > Individual states do not have the resources to oppose our military. They do not need to. When independence movements are militarily squashed, that is when foreign rivals step in officially to fund and supply weapons to them. It happened in Kosovo, Taiwan, Donbass, South Ossentia, etc.. > I don’t think even hostile countries like China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea would even attempt to get involved in an internal conflict I hesitate to even reply to this comment. I think you know, reading it, how wrong it is.

divided 4y ago
Yes, I’m aware of Quebec’s history (and other provinces/territories threaten it these days). But the same thing happens in the US and having a Senate hasn’t changed that. That was the original point, our Senate/Electoral College isn’t keeping our states in the US. Just like a lack of a US-style Senate isn’t causing Quebec and others to flee Canada. It’s the original point I was trying to make about how this is magical thinking and ignores what history around the world shows us. The examples given are a far cry from a situation like a US state leaving. A couple are Russian-armed separatists from neighboring countries. No state’s relationship to the US at all resembles Taiwan’s to China. And Kosovo is in a region that has dealt with strife since the early 1990’s. A state seceding from the US would look very different than these. Perhaps they would try to give aid covertly, but they wouldn’t risk a hot war. Intervening in a state seceding would be seen as a direct attack on US soil, very different than us aiding Ukraine or Russia aiding Syria.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  I think you're discounting second order effects of the Senate. Why is the US as culturally-homogeneous as it is? Because small states' population's interests are represented. How are they represented...?