20 ms·

– Android-based alternative for mobile phones

291 points by ivanvas 4y ago

colordrops 4y ago
So will Google pull the rug out from under this if it starts getting real traction?
- nickzana 4y ago
  Google Pixels generally have the best support for alternate OSes, especially from a security POV. See CalyxOS and GrapheneOS, which primarily/only support Pixels thanks to their ability to re-lock the bootloader. I doubt third party Android distributions pose any real threat to Google given that 99% of people will stick to the default.
- i67vw3 4y ago
  According to comment by head graphene developer on twitter, google devs really like what they are doing and are happy about it. Apple also recently made changes into their Mac code supposedly to help Asahi Linux team.
- npteljes 4y ago
  They haven't done that so far, and the predecessors were getting plenty of traction (CyanogenMod, LineageOS). Neither have they controlled the alternative Chromium distributions too much. Nevertheless, the project depends on Google on the long term.
jamespetersmark 4y ago
Ava433 4y ago
ReadTheLicense 4y ago
What's the difference from AOSP as it is - can't find that in the article? AFAIK (I have it on my phone) there's nothing Google in there already, no changes needed. Google services and apps have to be installed and I simply didn't do that.
- colordrops 4y ago
  I think AOSP still does things like using google for DNS, connectivity checks, time sync, etc even without google play services installed.
- mrsteveman1 4y ago
  As I understand it: The Google related things that are excluded from AOSP are things that Google doesn't want them to be there, for whatever reason. The Google related things that are excluded from this project are things that users don't want them to be there at all, i.e. everything Google related.
  - ReadTheLicense 4y ago
    My point is, there's practically nothing Google related in my phone already. I am going through the settings and apps and can't find anything. Is LineageOS special in this regard? I thought this is the common AOSP experience, I had it the same with other ROMs.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      AOSP by itself still contacts Google --- without any additional apps or services installed. /e/OS has described were/how this occurs.
      - commoner 4y ago
        In case anyone missed it in TFA, here is /e/'s whitepaper on how they substitute and proxy Google services: https://e.foundation/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/e-state-of-degooglisation.pdf https://e.foundation/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/e-state-of-d... (PDF) There's also an updated description of /e/ here: https://doc.e.foundation/what-s-e https://doc.e.foundation/what-s-e
chomp 4y ago
From /e/'s site, de-googling (because the review didn't go in depth on this): - To remove or disable any feature or code that is sending data to Google servers, or at least to anonymize those accesses - To offer non-Google default online services, including for search. - the Google default search engine is removed and replaced by other services - Google Services are replaced by microG and alternative services - All Google apps are removed and replaced by equivalent Open Source applications. The one exception is the Maps Application (Looks like it also uses Google's browser Chromium, though with privacy patches) - No use of Google servers to check connectivity - NTP servers are not Google NTP servers anymore - DNS default servers are not Google anymore, and their settings can be enforced by the user to a specific server - Geolocation is using Mozilla Location Services in addition to GPS - CalDAV/CardDAV management and synchronization application (DAVDroid) is fully integrated with the user account and calendar/contact application
- deleted 4y ago
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- butterNaN 4y ago
  I wonder why these FOSS-y projects don't bundle Firefox for Mobile with them. It is a far superior experience with Add-Ons. In fact, I don't even use most apps anymore, most websites' web versions are more than adequate nowadays. In fact at least in one instance viz. Duolingo, the web experience is far superior than the app.
  - derkades 4y ago
    I agree that Firefox is great, and addon support is one of the reasons why it is my browser of choice. However, chromium is faster and more secure.
colordrops 4y ago
Eventually it would be nice if they could contribute to Osmand and get it up to snuff for daily use and replace Magic Earth.
- commoner 4y ago
  Organic Maps has a simple user interface that makes it a more similar FOSS replacement for Magic Earth. - Organic Maps: https://organicmaps.app https://organicmaps.app OsmAnd is a heavyweight with more features, including an advanced OSM editor, trip recording, Mapillary street view, and other plugins, for those that need them. - OsmAnd: https://osmand.net https://osmand.net
  - fezfight 4y ago
    I can vouch that organic maps is really quite nice, straight forward and familiar. OSMAnd is more fun, in my opinion, because of all the features but if you're looking for familiar, organic maps is the way to go.
    - deleted 4y ago
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    - 22c 4y ago
      What I'd really like is for all OSM apps to agree on a place to store the offline OSM data. I don't mind having multiple navigation apps with different strengths/weaknesses but I don't want to download several gigs of offline maps for each app I might use.
  - colordrops 4y ago
    Organic Maps is nice, thanks for the pointer. Maps.me looks very similar - are they related somehow?
    - commoner 4y ago
      Yes, Organic Maps is a fork of Maps.me. The original Maps.me was acquired by Daegu Limited, a subsidiary of the financial services company Parity.com, and they stopped publishing source code afterward. - Press release: https://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/MAIL/mail-ru-group-sells-maps-me/14739415 https://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/MAIL/mail-r... - OSM removed from Maps.me, then re-added: https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/14076 https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/14076 - No more source code releases from Maps.me: https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/14157 https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/14157
fsflover 4y ago
In my humble opinion, relying on custom ROMs running mandatory non-free drivers is a road to nowhere, long term, due to their unavoidable planned obsolescence. And it always has been. Supporting GNU/Linux phones is the way to improve future privacy and security (despite they may not be as secure as some Android custom ROMs are yet).
- alexb_ 4y ago
  Unfortunately for that idea, I would like my phone to actually just function normally, and have support for programs that Android uses. You are making perfect the enemy of good here.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    I'm using Pinephone as a daily driver (and waiting for Librem 5 to replace it) and avoid all proprietary Android apps. But you in principle can install them with Waydroid or Anbox. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32396685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32396685.
    - commoner 4y ago
      WayDroid is more usable than a lot of people would expect. Here's a demo from 10 months ago: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dyOgI8PRt9w https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dyOgI8PRt9w
    - memling 4y ago
      > I'm using Pinephone as a daily driver What OS? Does MMS work out of the box for you?
      - fsflover 4y ago
        Mobian. I'm not using MMS; according to [0], it's in beta state. [0] https://wiki.mobian-project.org/doku.php?id=pinephone https://wiki.mobian-project.org/doku.php?id=pinephone
COGlory 4y ago
I use /e/ daily as does a co-worker (we aren't working in tech). It's the one piece of alternative software that I'm comfortable recommending to anyone. It "just works" just as much as Android "just works".
- deleted 4y ago
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- jlkuester7 4y ago
  IMHO, this is the real value of /e/! I had a non-technical friend ask me how they could get an Android phone that would not spy on them. I could have suggested GrapheneOS (what I use) or LOS+microg, but instead I sent her /e/ because it hits that perfect balance of privacy and usability for a normal person!
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- martinald 4y ago
  But do apps like Uber, WhatsApp etc work ok on it?
  - commoner 4y ago
    Uber and WhatsApp work well on /e/ and other Android distributions with microG. For microG compatibility, Plexus rates Uber 3 out of 4 (good), and WhatsApp 4 out of 4 (perfect). - Plexus: https://plexus.techlore.tech/ https://plexus.techlore.tech/ I can confirm that the map in Uber can be janky at times, but the app is otherwise fully functional. Both the Uber web app and the Lyft app (4 out of 4 on Plexus) work flawlessly.
    - martinald 4y ago
      Great, I didn't realise this had moved on so much.
  - imiric 4y ago
    I specifically use /e/ because of its seamless microG integration. Even banking apps work great on it.
0xbadcafebee 4y ago
"We are making a mobile phone ecosystem that lets users escape the permanent and industrial harvesting of their personal data." I have never heard any normal person ever talk about data privacy. It feels like there's this giant bubble that the tech world lives in, and they are the only people who care about this issue.
- fezfight 4y ago
  Good it happens at all. These people are the last bastions of hope.
- eldaisfish 4y ago
  this is my #1 complaint as well. These OSs must be easy to install and reliable. Having parts of the OS crash, dealing with the terminal, using ADB over USB... all of that makes zero sense to the average person or someone pressed for time. I now want my phone to work and that is why i use iOS. Having to replace the OS on your phone is already a step too far for most. The install instructions here require using the terminal and typing commands - not going to happen for most people. IMHO, the easiest path to adoption is to have a hardware manufacturer put this OS on their phones. No installation required.
  - COGlory 4y ago
    >Having parts of the OS crash, dealing with the terminal, using ADB over USB... I bought a phone from /e/ and have never had this happen in almost 2 years.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      Relax, OP is just reaching for whatever rationalization they can get to continue sucking on Apple's tit.
      - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
        That's a shitty comment man
Grazester 4y ago
I feel like I wouldn't use this based on the name alone. How do I say it? forward slash ee forward slash? I don't understand why anyone would think it was a good idea to name it this!
- Aransentin 4y ago
  My immediate reaction was that it was some sort of 4chan project, tounge-in-cheek named after their softcore porn board (also named "/e/"). I'd wager I'm not the only one thinking that.
  - labster 4y ago
    Careful, your powerlevel is showing.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  When I see slash letter slash I think "a board on 4chan". In this case, it happens to be a pornographic board. Bad name all around.
  - atomlib 4y ago
    Hey, at least it isn't a political board or something. That would be much worse.
- softfalcon 4y ago
  A solid product name is important for marketing, to be sure. However, it's also a way that native English folks prejudice against foreign products that are arguably very useful and valuable. I'm not saying you're wrong in doing what everyone does and allowing the marketing naming to sway your decision. However, I would gently suggest that you take a more critical approach and evaluate the actual product instead of letting something as simple as naming deter you from using a product. After all, kubernetes is complicated and stupid sounding, but we can just rebrand it to "Google Cloud" or whatever and people will love it. Same can be done for /e/... they'll just call it "NextPhone" or some other catchy name.
devonallie 4y ago
I love LineageOS and have used microG services for so long but forks like this strike me as sad as needing to assimilate to the look and feel of iOS. It comes off as cheap and unoriginal. Now this is harsh criticism I understand but I do appreciate how much effort it must have taken to make all of these app forks. I only wish the effort was spent building something more interesting.
- commoner 4y ago
  Android launchers are like Linux desktop environments. There are plenty of options, and everyone can pick the one that works best for them. It's easy to install another launcher and set it as the default. /e/'s Bliss Launcher is going to feel more familiar for people who are coming from iOS. For a more traditional Android experience, Lawnchair* would be a better fit. It's just like how GNOME and KDE are closer in design to the desktop environments of macOS and Windows, respectively. Every Android distribution has to pick a default launcher. /e/ choosing an iOS-like launcher by default is their way of attracting users who want a simpler user experience. * Lawnchair: https://lawnchair.app https://lawnchair.app
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  I use /e/OS with Discreet Launcher. It does not mimic iOS.
  - kemayo 4y ago
    It does look like /e/ mimics iOS by default, though, which is where I think the original poster's criticism is aimed. The screenshot in this article showing bliss is very iOS-y.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      I really don't care as long as it doesn't mimic Google and try to destroy my privacy. Lots of other launchers to choose from and changing is easy.
- pessimizer 4y ago
gjsman-1000 4y ago
This is unrelated from the rest of the project, but why do open source projects in general have such inexplicably bad marketing? To the degree where you can't believe that somebody actually thought this would work? To the degree you can't believe someone with no marketing experience could be this inept? What is /e/? How is it pronounced? What does it mean? How do I tell people about it? Does it stick out in a Google search (which it does not)? But on that line, why do we have GIMP, GNOME, Everything starting with the letter K on KDE, KDE itself, Hector Martin's "Asahi Lina" nonsense, and on and on...
- smoldesu 4y ago
  > why do open source projects in general have such inexplicably bad marketing? Because they don't pay a marketing team to work 9-5 alongside them? That's probably the reason why all the art is ugly too, their website kinda sucks, et al. But that's not really the main appeal of this project, and I think it's honorable that they're focusing all their effort on the product rather than the vanity. If they did spend time writing marketing double-speak, the HN refutation du-jour would be that they're not focusing on privacy enough. > But on that line, why do we have GIMP, GNOME, Everything starting with the letter K on KDE, KDE itself, Hector Martin's "Asahi Lina" nonsense, and on and on... Why was one of the first NES emulators called Nesticle? Who knows, and who cares? The quality of the software spoke for itself, and it opened the doors to decades of unsuccessful litigation from Sony and Nintendo. The same thing happened for Linux, Nginx, Kubernetes, BSD... you name it. The utility of these projects far outweighs their respective sex appeal, so why even bother making a pretty landing page? While we're on the topic, why does Apple have such a bad history of choosing names for their stuff too? "Xcode" doesn't confer anything to me as a user, at least "Visual Studio" tells me I'm about to be using an IDE. Also makes it sound like an x11/Xorg tool, which it certainly isn't. Similarly, "Logic Pro", "Final Cut" and even "iTunes" are dorky titles. Even Microsoft, the patron saint of bad UX design, has the balls to just call their app "Music" and "Photos".
  - toxican 4y ago
    I'm a little hung up on the fact that you think between "Xcode" and "visual studio" that the latter is the one that more suggests you're about to be writing code in an IDE.
rand0m4r 4y ago
after being an android user for about 13 years i switched to an iphone se this year, and i’m very satisfied. you just can’t compare apples and oranges, android is sluggish even with a high end phone
- _puk 4y ago
  I suppose it's all personal preference past a point.. I tried switching from an old Pixel 3 to a new iPhone recently and just couldn't get on with it. Simple things like not being able to order the home screen how I want it drove me nuts. Dropped back to a Pixel 4a (5G) and I'm very satisfied. No issues with sluggish performance that I've seen.
- ganzman 4y ago
  Surely you haven’t tried all Android phones out there, so why make such a generalizing comment? I’m daily driving a mediocre Pixel 4a and have no such issues. I also tried an iPhone 11 Pro alongside my Pixel for a few months. What an unwieldy brick that was and they’re only getting heavier. Notifications handling and navigating the settings suck big time, and overall it felt very restricting to use.
- tonoto 4y ago
  I switched to an Iphone 11 Pro last year after many years with Android, but I'm going back to Android when two years has passed (I'm on agreement to be able to switch every 2 years), although I would happily look into /e/ instead. One and a half years with IOS has been a misery so far, due to lack of separate media volume the switch is almost always on silent - thus I regularly misses many calls. I feel shortage of RAM on IOS, and the way they have solved it is by having some form of pseudo multi tasking.
Bud 4y ago
Really embarrassing level of blatant copying of iOS icons and design language, here.
- commoner 4y ago
  "Picasso had a saying. He said, 'Good artists copy; great artists steal', and we have, you know, always been shameless about stealing great ideas." -- Steve Jobs, in Triumph of the Nerds (1996 documentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6jeZ7m0ycw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6jeZ7m0ycw
  - Bud 4y ago
    This isn't Steve Jobs.
    - commoner 4y ago
      Seriously? Here's the transcript straight from PBS, the distributor of the documentary: https://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html https://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html
- unethical_ban 4y ago
  I welcome you to defend why it's embarrassing.
  - Bud 4y ago
    It's embarrassing, a priori. There's so much here that is embarrassing that we'd have to have about five beers to even cover it on a surface level. So much that was just lazily copied verbatim rather than anyone TRYING to do something original, or even do just a slight, semi-creative variation.
    - unethical_ban 4y ago
      Copying good design on a volunteer project is not shameful. We disagree.
Arrgh 4y ago
It's not an "alternative", it's still Android, just a fork of a fork.
- mcv 4y ago
  It's an alternative Android, rather than an alternative to Android. Or it's an alternative to stock-Android.
soufron 4y ago
I have used /e/ as my main phone for 1 year - and I am a heavy user. It’s a bliss! I also got a phone with /e/ installed on it for my 73 years old mother. She loved it. It’s really surprising to see how the bigtech monopoly has nothing to do with the quality of their services, but everything with their unfair practices - Microsoft yesterday, Google today.
- em-bee 4y ago
  pretty much the same story for me. started 3 years ago, and got a phone for my 70 year old mother almost two years ago. she gets help to install new apps, but otherwise it works just fine for her.
  - soufron 4y ago
    And it’s « stable ». I mean it works and will keep on working for years.
  - soco 4y ago
    How is /e/ making things easier for them? My folks are constantly puzzled by their galaxy phones: not only notifications and sudden app changes, but also touching the edges of the screen triggering unexpected things... What will another OS do better?
    - em-bee 4y ago
      well, the problem here is that the general market is not targeting elder people. /e/ at least doesn't so far have any sudden app changes, because their focus and selling point is usability and and privacy, and not the latest new and shiny
attah_ 4y ago
Calling it an alternative is an insult against actual alternatives. It's still Android, just less googly.
- bornfreddy 4y ago
  Cool, except... What alternatives are there? With the caveat that phone calls (roaming too), SMS and mobile data must work reliably. Is there an alternative that provides this? Librem 5 maybe? Last I checked neither PinePhone nor Purism were there yet.
  - josefx 4y ago
    The problem with Android based "alternatives" is Googles licensing. The licensing agreements for Googles apps require that Google gets to decide which android forks device manufacturers are allowed to sell if they don't want to be completely cut of from Googles ecosystem. So if you actually plan to use it for anything bigger you wont even be able to find a manufacturer willing to touch it, even Amazon had problems getting the Kindle produced. Any attempt to de google Android will be stuck as a niche product for enthusiasts.
    - kubanczyk 4y ago
      It sounds interesting but I cannot connect the dots. So, the Google-authored apps' use can become illegal in future on a specific ("bigger") fork of Android you say? But that's just the license terms of Google apps. I don't understand what would a manufacturer be afraid of, exactly? (Does Kindle need any Google apps?...)
      - josefx 4y ago
        Most big manufacturers currently sell Google approved Android with Google apps. Selling even one not approved Android device voids the license for Google apps on the manufacturers entire existing lineup as far as I understand. It is either all or nothing. Imagine yourself convincing Samsung to dump entire warehouses filled with Google (TM) Android phones and any chance of future success in that market in the trash over a handful of ebook readers. That is what Amazon had to deal with.
solotronics 4y ago
Is there any Android alternative that works with Android Auto? One of the primary uses of my phone is plugging into my car to play music and navigate.
- sfRattan 4y ago
  I've been searching for an alternative to Android Auto itself. After an update some months ago, launching the app takes me to a settings panel declaring that Android Auto is no longer supported for phone screens (i.e. it is now only designed to run while linked to a car with a compatible display), and the app itself refuses to run as it used to on just the phone. Add that functionality to the Google graveyard, I guess...
  - roumenguha 4y ago
    Possible workaround: downgrade to an older version and disable auto-update?
- commoner 4y ago
  I don't think Android Auto works without Google Play Services at this time. Here's the feature request for Android Auto support on microG: https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/897 https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/897
- yoavm 4y ago
  Lineage works perfectly fine for me with Android Auto
  - npteljes 4y ago
    Can you please share your specifics? Phone model, LineageOS version, Android Auto version if you can?
  - aesh2Xa1 4y ago
    It will work if you install a Google Apps package, but not otherwise.
squarefoot 4y ago
From the /e/ Foundation website: "The easy-installer beta version supports 15 devices" This is the #1 problem, but it's not /e/ developers fault, as supporting devices is a time consuming and costly activity, and the risk of bricking an expensive device is just too high for normal users to want to try. Manufacturers are to blame. It's not a technical problem but rather a political one; manufacturers should be forced by law to unlock boot loaders and publish at least the bare minimum documentation enough for porting software to devices that became obsolete either by the introduction of a newer version, or after support has ceased. Until that happens, I'm afraid we'll see more and more projects supporting only a very small part of the available devices.
- commoner 4y ago
  I'd expect the installer to support more devices over time, since /e/ officially supports 269 devices: https://support.e.foundation/devices https://support.e.foundation/devices It's promising that more and more alternative Android distributions are offering installers to make them more accessible to average phone users. On the Linux phone side, even Ubuntu Touch has an installer that supports 81 devices: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/installer/ https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/installer/ But, device manufacturers need to make bootloaders unlockable for these installers to work, and I agree that regulation is a practical way to make this happen. I can see Europe taking the lead on this with the goal of reducing e-waste by encouraging the reuse of old devices.
  - stkdump 4y ago
    That looks like a copy of the list of supported devices of lineage. I highly doubt that the e foundation can test their installer on so many devices. They (or their own developer community) would need to get access to these devices at least. I guess the only way to broaden support for the installer a lot would be to work on upstreaming it to the lineage project so that the broader community does the work for them.
    - commoner 4y ago
      LineageOS currently supports 179 models, so it's not a copy of the LineageOS device list.[1][2] These projects support different selections of devices. There are devices that are supported by /e/ and not by LineageOS, and vice versa. [1] https://www.lineageoslog.com/statistics https://www.lineageoslog.com/statistics [2] https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/
2-718-281-828 4y ago
I have been using LOS since 17.1 on OP3T and OP6. How would my experience with /e/ differ?
- commoner 4y ago
  How are you using Google services on LineageOS now? Do you have microG preinstalled (LineageOS for microG)[1], did you install GApps, or are you not using Google services at all? /e/ has microG installed, just like LineageOS for microG. Compared to the proprietary Google Play Services in GApps, microG is a FOSS library that allows apps to access Google services. microG lets you selectively enable/disable push notification access for individual apps that depend on Google's Firebase Cloud Messaging, and also lets you choose a location provider other than Google. On the other hand, microG is not compatible with all apps that depend on Google Play Services. For example, Android Auto and Google Pay are not supported. Also, /e/ and LineageOS support different versions for different devices. Since LineageOS supports Android 12 on OnePlus 6T,[2] while /e/ has that device on Android 11 (R),[3] LineageOS for microG may be a better choice on that device. Both /e/ and LineageOS support Android 11 on the OnePlus 3T.[4][5] [1] https://lineage.microg.org https://lineage.microg.org [2] https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/enchilada/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/enchilada/ [3] https://doc.e.foundation/devices/enchilada https://doc.e.foundation/devices/enchilada [4] https://doc.e.foundation/devices/oneplus3 https://doc.e.foundation/devices/oneplus3 [5] https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/oneplus3/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/oneplus3/
  - 2-718-281-828 4y ago
    have been using microG (as LOS for microG) up until about two years ago. but it seemed less and less actively developed, so I switchted to vanilla LOS. No GApps. Everything I need works (even stuff like Signal or Google Maps). Only type of apps that don't work are some actively and unnecessarily screening for Google Services or stuff like Uber which uses an integrated map. > LineageOS for microG may be a better choice on that device LOS for microG always seemed a bit fishy - the way the project is run and executed. Seemed less transparent than vanilla LOS. microG's release schedule is a bit gappy for my taste. sometimes no updates or fixes for several months :/ https://doc.e.foundation/devices https://doc.e.foundation/devices > while /e/ has that device on Android 11 (R) The versioning of /e/ seems to be about as confusing as the project name itself but as far as I can tell from that table there is no device with a version beyond R. so, I'd assume they just need some more time to release it?
opan 4y ago
I'll never use a custom ROM that includes microg by default. LineageOS with no gapps of any kind is my preference. I can get apps from f-droid or even aurora store, and everything I need works. I don't want any google stuff on there, not even a slightly less sketchy version.
- imiric 4y ago
  Sure, but, unfortunately, a lot of apps require Google Play Services to work at all, so microG is the only sane alternative. The fact /e/OS includes it pre-configured OOB is a positive for my use case. My primary device runs GrapheneOS, but a secondary device with /e/OS is the next best thing for apps that refuse to work without Google Play Services. Or those that I just want to keep off my main device.
- stkdump 4y ago
  I might be misunderstanding it, but microg is not (like the name suggests) a stripped down version of the google services. It is a reimplementation of the APIs that the google services provide to installed apps. It doesn't reuse any code (it couldn't, because the google services are not open source) and doesn't connect to google servers, afaik.
  - 8293048883 4y ago
    > doesn't connect to google servers Microg optionally supports Firebase Cloud Messaging for apps that require it for push notifications.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    As per their motto, MicroG is "A free-as-in-freedom re-implementation of Google’s proprietary Android user space apps and libraries". They absolutely do connect to Google services, just not with the proprietary Google implementation of the softwares, but with a reimplementation. I think this is very similar to NewPipe for example. Google's proprietary services, with an open source frontend.
zzo38computer 4y ago
I think that they should reduce as much as possible, the background services, telemetry, animations, etc to try to allow battery power to last longer, reduce service fees for internet, etc. Privacy is one issue but it is not the only one. (Furthermore, some manufacturers will include hardware kill switches, which might be able to further reduce power requirements and improve privacy and security.) Functions can still be working if the user specifically activates and controls them, though. App permissions could be done by a proxy implementation; this allows better user controls, for example you can create two separate files with the same app and the files don't know each other (and later move them using file manager if wanted), or to make it access a empty contacts list or one filled in with random data instead of the actual data.
smetsjp 4y ago
I have been using for years. It is quite usable, improves every day and even replaces things like Google of Office365 clouds (in a self-hostable way). I recently installed on a Galaxy Tab S6 Lite (first version) and I now use it as a laptop whenever I need a very long battery life or something smaller than my full sized Linux laptop. And, it is a real product, one that is thought to be used.
PufPufPuf 4y ago
When the title said "Android alternative", I was actually expecting an alternative OS (like Sailfish or Ubuntu Touch), not a mere LineageOS fork. That's like calling Ubuntu a "Linux alternative".
- yarg 4y ago
  It's closer to calling Rocky Linux an alternative to RHEL.
- dang 4y ago
  Ok, we've Android-based it in the title above.
alestainer 4y ago
/e/ docs say it uses Android keyboard, wouldn't that be a source of a data leak?
- commoner 4y ago
  The "Android Keyboard (AOSP)"[1] in /e/ is a fork of the LineageOS keyboard.[2] Neither of these keyboards have network access. This is different from the keyboards that are preloaded on some Android phones, such as Gboard and Samsung Keyboard, which do connect to the internet. [1] https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/android_packages_inputmethods_LatinIME https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/android_packages_inputmetho... [2] https://github.com/LineageOS/android_packages_inputmethods_LatinIME https://github.com/LineageOS/android_packages_inputmethods_L...
  - Ank_S 4y ago
    Sadly, most of newer smartphones are getting shipped with more default google apps like Phone, Messaging & Keyboard. AOSP alternatives of these apps works well, but manufacturers are choosing/forced to choose more Google apps as default which is really sad. I don't want Google updating "Phone" app every few days.
EastSmith 4y ago
So I went and check the instructions how to manually install /e/ on a device here [0] I was welcomed with 5 types of warnings why not to do it. And I decided not to do it. But here what the instructions should have been: 1. Adb - make sure you have a adb connection. More information here. 2. Run this script from you computer. 3. At the beginning of the script check a checkbox acknowledging that the data will be lost, and there is a small chance your device gets bricked. https://support.e.foundation/devices/beyondx/install https://support.e.foundation/devices/beyondx/install
- COGlory 4y ago
  15 devices are supported by the easy installer. https://doc.e.foundation/easy-installer https://doc.e.foundation/easy-installer Blame the device manufacturers for the rest.
Ank_S 4y ago
They used to have a shady app store when I last used it, sourced from cleanapk.org https://nervuri.net/e/apps https://nervuri.net/e/apps Now, they have opted for forking "Aurora Store" than to choose more closer FOSS alternative like "F-droid". https://www.xda-developers.com/murena-one-review/ https://www.xda-developers.com/murena-one-review/
cat_plus_plus 4y ago
If you like alternative services, great, but small companies are also prone to getting hacked, don't have resources to fight government warrants and can just go under and lose your data. Many store unencrypted data on common cloud providers like Amazon.
- _rdvw 4y ago
  No hack required, they leaked data of users themselves: https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may/41252/10 https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may... And won't offer Nextcloud's E2EE option due to concerns with data loss.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    That's a ridiculous issue. I feel better for hosting it myself.
xrd 4y ago
I've been reading for a while about LineageOS. If i recall correctly, i felt like the camera didn't work at all. It was my takeaway that you couldn't have a "full" phone (meaning, calls, sms, camera, full network, etc) if you were planning on migrating away from iOS or Android from the carrier. Looks like the e phone has the full experience. I would prefer to buy an older android phone and install my own OS so I'm able to switch away if I want to. Is there a good option if that's the desire?
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  It depends on your phone. LineageOS works entirely on mine (asus z2 or z3, I don't remember), no compromises needed. edit: Forgot to mention you have to install microg in addition to LineageOS to get notifications.
- npteljes 4y ago
  The camera issue is real. Phone cameras are kinda bad, because they are very limited, and so, a lot of the beautiful magic comes from software. Samsung, quite horrible, put some magic into their kernel, as well as into their camera software. Therefore, one can't just use their proprietary camera app, on a different base system. You can't even shoot slo-mo videos either; I tried the S7 and now the S9 and neither can do it with LineageOS. The still images are not bad with OpenCamera though, although I can't say I'm a connoisseur either. So full experience? No. But you can slap it on an older phone and enjoy a system that's never even supported officially, and now it's being updated every month. Some rough edges here and there. I'm personally a happy user.
rd07 4y ago
I have installed /e/ on my old Xiaomi phone for months now, and it is amazing. The OS is stable, and I can install many apps from the apps store. It also being updated frequently, so at least it has the latest security patch covered. If only my phone doesn't have a charging problem (it is a hardware problem), I might have used it as my main phone.
Ava433 4y ago
EricHolden12 4y ago
Store brand iOS
_rdvw 4y ago
I'm biased as a maintainer of my own OS, but there are severe issues with /e/OS: https://divestos.org/misc/e.txt https://divestos.org/misc/e.txt And it is honestly sad to see, because they could be a real viable option and instead choose to largely ignore or hand-wave away these issues.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > - Enables Safetynet checks by default which downloads and executes obfuscated proprietary code from Google > - Includes proprietary Google Widevine DRM on nearly all devices While proprietary code, obfuscation, and DRM are all evil, if /e/OS didn't support these things, then a lot of very popular apps wouldn't work on it, which would make it a lot less viable as a platform. Refusing to do those things wouldn't result in any less of those evil technologies. It would just result in less /e/OS adoption.
  - npteljes 4y ago
    Linux solves a similar problem sometimes by asking the user if they'd like that feature or not. I'd really appreciate that, of course, while understanding that all these need a lot of extra effort.
  - _rdvw 4y ago
    My gripe is more so the outdated/insecure browser/webview, PDF viewer, and Tor daemon.
- npteljes 4y ago
  Very good list. As a daily user of /e/, I can attest to most of the concerns, which I agree are valid. Advanced Privacy is a major WTF. Using TOR without mentioning it is strange. And so is their all-or-nothing location faker tool. Sounded nice until I wanted to use a navigation app, which too got my fake location. Then I had to disable the faking, making my location available to all applications - quite a headscratcher. CleanAPK is another WTF baked-in dependency. I suppose they are running it themselves, just not in the open, because of copyright and other issues maybe? I don't know, they don't tell me, and why are we left guessing such an important thing on a privacy phone? An update also borked my phone, forcing it into a reboot loop. Granted, it was from 0.something to 1.something, but still, it was the next update in line, I thought the updater could manage it. Aside from these, I'm still a happy user of the system. I appreciate the degoogling effort over the mainline LineageOS. I'd like to have a question about DivestOS. Which device(s) do you regard as the main one(s)? I mean, which do you think will receive the most updates, the longest support, and so on? I'd wager the ones marked "Tested working" are the most healthy?
foobarbecue 4y ago
please tell me this is pronounced "slashyslash"
- willio58 4y ago
  Every time this OS is linked on HN half the comments are about pronunciation. That’s probably not a good thing when it comes to marketing..
  - npteljes 4y ago
    I agree. It's good that it's distinct, but it's very hard to pronounce or google.
    - foobarbecue 4y ago
      Not to mention include in filenames.
NonNefarious 4y ago
The asinine name gets an F.
ElectronBadger 4y ago
I've been running /e/ OS on Fairphone 3+ for the last 2 years or so. My general experience is very good, the only serious downside is that I cannot purchase a premium license for Locus Map (which has to be purchased via Google app store).
Ava433 4y ago
Ava433 4y ago
michannne 4y ago
Minor unrelated, but very happy with how quickly the webpage loaded and how it's just pure content (viewing from mobile)

291 points by ivanvas 4y ago

colordrops 4y ago

So will Google pull the rug out from under this if it starts getting real traction?

nickzana 4y ago
Google Pixels generally have the best support for alternate OSes, especially from a security POV. See CalyxOS and GrapheneOS, which primarily/only support Pixels thanks to their ability to re-lock the bootloader. I doubt third party Android distributions pose any real threat to Google given that 99% of people will stick to the default.
i67vw3 4y ago
According to comment by head graphene developer on twitter, google devs really like what they are doing and are happy about it. Apple also recently made changes into their Mac code supposedly to help Asahi Linux team.
npteljes 4y ago
They haven't done that so far, and the predecessors were getting plenty of traction (CyanogenMod, LineageOS). Neither have they controlled the alternative Chromium distributions too much. Nevertheless, the project depends on Google on the long term.

jamespetersmark 4y ago

Ava433 4y ago

ReadTheLicense 4y ago

What's the difference from AOSP as it is - can't find that in the article? AFAIK (I have it on my phone) there's nothing Google in there already, no changes needed. Google services and apps have to be installed and I simply didn't do that.

colordrops 4y ago
I think AOSP still does things like using google for DNS, connectivity checks, time sync, etc even without google play services installed.
mrsteveman1 4y ago
As I understand it: The Google related things that are excluded from AOSP are things that Google doesn't want them to be there, for whatever reason. The Google related things that are excluded from this project are things that users don't want them to be there at all, i.e. everything Google related.
- ReadTheLicense 4y ago
  My point is, there's practically nothing Google related in my phone already. I am going through the settings and apps and can't find anything. Is LineageOS special in this regard? I thought this is the common AOSP experience, I had it the same with other ROMs.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    AOSP by itself still contacts Google --- without any additional apps or services installed. /e/OS has described were/how this occurs.
    - commoner 4y ago
      In case anyone missed it in TFA, here is /e/'s whitepaper on how they substitute and proxy Google services: https://e.foundation/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/e-state-of-degooglisation.pdf https://e.foundation/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/e-state-of-d... (PDF) There's also an updated description of /e/ here: https://doc.e.foundation/what-s-e https://doc.e.foundation/what-s-e

chomp 4y ago

From /e/'s site, de-googling (because the review didn't go in depth on this): - To remove or disable any feature or code that is sending data to Google servers, or at least to anonymize those accesses - To offer non-Google default online services, including for search. - the Google default search engine is removed and replaced by other services - Google Services are replaced by microG and alternative services - All Google apps are removed and replaced by equivalent Open Source applications. The one exception is the Maps Application (Looks like it also uses Google's browser Chromium, though with privacy patches) - No use of Google servers to check connectivity - NTP servers are not Google NTP servers anymore - DNS default servers are not Google anymore, and their settings can be enforced by the user to a specific server - Geolocation is using Mozilla Location Services in addition to GPS - CalDAV/CardDAV management and synchronization application (DAVDroid) is fully integrated with the user account and calendar/contact application

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butterNaN 4y ago
I wonder why these FOSS-y projects don't bundle Firefox for Mobile with them. It is a far superior experience with Add-Ons. In fact, I don't even use most apps anymore, most websites' web versions are more than adequate nowadays. In fact at least in one instance viz. Duolingo, the web experience is far superior than the app.
- derkades 4y ago
  I agree that Firefox is great, and addon support is one of the reasons why it is my browser of choice. However, chromium is faster and more secure.

colordrops 4y ago

Eventually it would be nice if they could contribute to Osmand and get it up to snuff for daily use and replace Magic Earth.

commoner 4y ago
Organic Maps has a simple user interface that makes it a more similar FOSS replacement for Magic Earth. - Organic Maps: https://organicmaps.app https://organicmaps.app OsmAnd is a heavyweight with more features, including an advanced OSM editor, trip recording, Mapillary street view, and other plugins, for those that need them. - OsmAnd: https://osmand.net https://osmand.net
- fezfight 4y ago
  I can vouch that organic maps is really quite nice, straight forward and familiar. OSMAnd is more fun, in my opinion, because of all the features but if you're looking for familiar, organic maps is the way to go.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - 22c 4y ago
    What I'd really like is for all OSM apps to agree on a place to store the offline OSM data. I don't mind having multiple navigation apps with different strengths/weaknesses but I don't want to download several gigs of offline maps for each app I might use.
- colordrops 4y ago
  Organic Maps is nice, thanks for the pointer. Maps.me looks very similar - are they related somehow?
  - commoner 4y ago
    Yes, Organic Maps is a fork of Maps.me. The original Maps.me was acquired by Daegu Limited, a subsidiary of the financial services company Parity.com, and they stopped publishing source code afterward. - Press release: https://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/MAIL/mail-ru-group-sells-maps-me/14739415 https://www.londonstockexchange.com/news-article/MAIL/mail-r... - OSM removed from Maps.me, then re-added: https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/14076 https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/14076 - No more source code releases from Maps.me: https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/14157 https://github.com/mapsme/omim/issues/14157

fsflover 4y ago

In my humble opinion, relying on custom ROMs running mandatory non-free drivers is a road to nowhere, long term, due to their unavoidable planned obsolescence. And it always has been. Supporting GNU/Linux phones is the way to improve future privacy and security (despite they may not be as secure as some Android custom ROMs are yet).

alexb_ 4y ago
Unfortunately for that idea, I would like my phone to actually just function normally, and have support for programs that Android uses. You are making perfect the enemy of good here.
- fsflover 4y ago
  I'm using Pinephone as a daily driver (and waiting for Librem 5 to replace it) and avoid all proprietary Android apps. But you in principle can install them with Waydroid or Anbox. See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32396685 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32396685.
  - commoner 4y ago
    WayDroid is more usable than a lot of people would expect. Here's a demo from 10 months ago: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dyOgI8PRt9w https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dyOgI8PRt9w
  - memling 4y ago
    > I'm using Pinephone as a daily driver What OS? Does MMS work out of the box for you?
    - fsflover 4y ago
      Mobian. I'm not using MMS; according to [0], it's in beta state. [0] https://wiki.mobian-project.org/doku.php?id=pinephone https://wiki.mobian-project.org/doku.php?id=pinephone

COGlory 4y ago

I use /e/ daily as does a co-worker (we aren't working in tech). It's the one piece of alternative software that I'm comfortable recommending to anyone. It "just works" just as much as Android "just works".

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jlkuester7 4y ago
IMHO, this is the real value of /e/! I had a non-technical friend ask me how they could get an Android phone that would not spy on them. I could have suggested GrapheneOS (what I use) or LOS+microg, but instead I sent her /e/ because it hits that perfect balance of privacy and usability for a normal person!
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martinald 4y ago
But do apps like Uber, WhatsApp etc work ok on it?
- commoner 4y ago
  Uber and WhatsApp work well on /e/ and other Android distributions with microG. For microG compatibility, Plexus rates Uber 3 out of 4 (good), and WhatsApp 4 out of 4 (perfect). - Plexus: https://plexus.techlore.tech/ https://plexus.techlore.tech/ I can confirm that the map in Uber can be janky at times, but the app is otherwise fully functional. Both the Uber web app and the Lyft app (4 out of 4 on Plexus) work flawlessly.
  - martinald 4y ago
    Great, I didn't realise this had moved on so much.
- imiric 4y ago
  I specifically use /e/ because of its seamless microG integration. Even banking apps work great on it.

0xbadcafebee 4y ago

"We are making a mobile phone ecosystem that lets users escape the permanent and industrial harvesting of their personal data." I have never heard any normal person ever talk about data privacy. It feels like there's this giant bubble that the tech world lives in, and they are the only people who care about this issue.

fezfight 4y ago
Good it happens at all. These people are the last bastions of hope.
eldaisfish 4y ago
this is my #1 complaint as well. These OSs must be easy to install and reliable. Having parts of the OS crash, dealing with the terminal, using ADB over USB... all of that makes zero sense to the average person or someone pressed for time. I now want my phone to work and that is why i use iOS. Having to replace the OS on your phone is already a step too far for most. The install instructions here require using the terminal and typing commands - not going to happen for most people. IMHO, the easiest path to adoption is to have a hardware manufacturer put this OS on their phones. No installation required.
- COGlory 4y ago
  >Having parts of the OS crash, dealing with the terminal, using ADB over USB... I bought a phone from /e/ and have never had this happen in almost 2 years.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    Relax, OP is just reaching for whatever rationalization they can get to continue sucking on Apple's tit.
    - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
      That's a shitty comment man

Grazester 4y ago

I feel like I wouldn't use this based on the name alone. How do I say it? forward slash ee forward slash? I don't understand why anyone would think it was a good idea to name it this!

Aransentin 4y ago
My immediate reaction was that it was some sort of 4chan project, tounge-in-cheek named after their softcore porn board (also named "/e/"). I'd wager I'm not the only one thinking that.
- labster 4y ago
  Careful, your powerlevel is showing.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
When I see slash letter slash I think "a board on 4chan". In this case, it happens to be a pornographic board. Bad name all around.
- atomlib 4y ago
  Hey, at least it isn't a political board or something. That would be much worse.
softfalcon 4y ago
A solid product name is important for marketing, to be sure. However, it's also a way that native English folks prejudice against foreign products that are arguably very useful and valuable. I'm not saying you're wrong in doing what everyone does and allowing the marketing naming to sway your decision. However, I would gently suggest that you take a more critical approach and evaluate the actual product instead of letting something as simple as naming deter you from using a product. After all, kubernetes is complicated and stupid sounding, but we can just rebrand it to "Google Cloud" or whatever and people will love it. Same can be done for /e/... they'll just call it "NextPhone" or some other catchy name.

devonallie 4y ago

I love LineageOS and have used microG services for so long but forks like this strike me as sad as needing to assimilate to the look and feel of iOS. It comes off as cheap and unoriginal. Now this is harsh criticism I understand but I do appreciate how much effort it must have taken to make all of these app forks. I only wish the effort was spent building something more interesting.

commoner 4y ago
Android launchers are like Linux desktop environments. There are plenty of options, and everyone can pick the one that works best for them. It's easy to install another launcher and set it as the default. /e/'s Bliss Launcher is going to feel more familiar for people who are coming from iOS. For a more traditional Android experience, Lawnchair* would be a better fit. It's just like how GNOME and KDE are closer in design to the desktop environments of macOS and Windows, respectively. Every Android distribution has to pick a default launcher. /e/ choosing an iOS-like launcher by default is their way of attracting users who want a simpler user experience. * Lawnchair: https://lawnchair.app https://lawnchair.app
jqpabc123 4y ago
I use /e/OS with Discreet Launcher. It does not mimic iOS.
- kemayo 4y ago
  It does look like /e/ mimics iOS by default, though, which is where I think the original poster's criticism is aimed. The screenshot in this article showing bliss is very iOS-y.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    I really don't care as long as it doesn't mimic Google and try to destroy my privacy. Lots of other launchers to choose from and changing is easy.
pessimizer 4y ago

gjsman-1000 4y ago

This is unrelated from the rest of the project, but why do open source projects in general have such inexplicably bad marketing? To the degree where you can't believe that somebody actually thought this would work? To the degree you can't believe someone with no marketing experience could be this inept? What is /e/? How is it pronounced? What does it mean? How do I tell people about it? Does it stick out in a Google search (which it does not)? But on that line, why do we have GIMP, GNOME, Everything starting with the letter K on KDE, KDE itself, Hector Martin's "Asahi Lina" nonsense, and on and on...

smoldesu 4y ago
> why do open source projects in general have such inexplicably bad marketing? Because they don't pay a marketing team to work 9-5 alongside them? That's probably the reason why all the art is ugly too, their website kinda sucks, et al. But that's not really the main appeal of this project, and I think it's honorable that they're focusing all their effort on the product rather than the vanity. If they did spend time writing marketing double-speak, the HN refutation du-jour would be that they're not focusing on privacy enough. > But on that line, why do we have GIMP, GNOME, Everything starting with the letter K on KDE, KDE itself, Hector Martin's "Asahi Lina" nonsense, and on and on... Why was one of the first NES emulators called Nesticle? Who knows, and who cares? The quality of the software spoke for itself, and it opened the doors to decades of unsuccessful litigation from Sony and Nintendo. The same thing happened for Linux, Nginx, Kubernetes, BSD... you name it. The utility of these projects far outweighs their respective sex appeal, so why even bother making a pretty landing page? While we're on the topic, why does Apple have such a bad history of choosing names for their stuff too? "Xcode" doesn't confer anything to me as a user, at least "Visual Studio" tells me I'm about to be using an IDE. Also makes it sound like an x11/Xorg tool, which it certainly isn't. Similarly, "Logic Pro", "Final Cut" and even "iTunes" are dorky titles. Even Microsoft, the patron saint of bad UX design, has the balls to just call their app "Music" and "Photos".
- toxican 4y ago
  I'm a little hung up on the fact that you think between "Xcode" and "visual studio" that the latter is the one that more suggests you're about to be writing code in an IDE.

rand0m4r 4y ago

after being an android user for about 13 years i switched to an iphone se this year, and i’m very satisfied. you just can’t compare apples and oranges, android is sluggish even with a high end phone

_puk 4y ago
I suppose it's all personal preference past a point.. I tried switching from an old Pixel 3 to a new iPhone recently and just couldn't get on with it. Simple things like not being able to order the home screen how I want it drove me nuts. Dropped back to a Pixel 4a (5G) and I'm very satisfied. No issues with sluggish performance that I've seen.
ganzman 4y ago
Surely you haven’t tried all Android phones out there, so why make such a generalizing comment? I’m daily driving a mediocre Pixel 4a and have no such issues. I also tried an iPhone 11 Pro alongside my Pixel for a few months. What an unwieldy brick that was and they’re only getting heavier. Notifications handling and navigating the settings suck big time, and overall it felt very restricting to use.
tonoto 4y ago
I switched to an Iphone 11 Pro last year after many years with Android, but I'm going back to Android when two years has passed (I'm on agreement to be able to switch every 2 years), although I would happily look into /e/ instead. One and a half years with IOS has been a misery so far, due to lack of separate media volume the switch is almost always on silent - thus I regularly misses many calls. I feel shortage of RAM on IOS, and the way they have solved it is by having some form of pseudo multi tasking.

Bud 4y ago

Really embarrassing level of blatant copying of iOS icons and design language, here.

commoner 4y ago
"Picasso had a saying. He said, 'Good artists copy; great artists steal', and we have, you know, always been shameless about stealing great ideas." -- Steve Jobs, in Triumph of the Nerds (1996 documentary) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6jeZ7m0ycw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6jeZ7m0ycw
- Bud 4y ago
  This isn't Steve Jobs.
  - commoner 4y ago
    Seriously? Here's the transcript straight from PBS, the distributor of the documentary: https://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html https://www.pbs.org/nerds/part3.html
unethical_ban 4y ago
I welcome you to defend why it's embarrassing.
- Bud 4y ago
  It's embarrassing, a priori. There's so much here that is embarrassing that we'd have to have about five beers to even cover it on a surface level. So much that was just lazily copied verbatim rather than anyone TRYING to do something original, or even do just a slight, semi-creative variation.
  - unethical_ban 4y ago
    Copying good design on a volunteer project is not shameful. We disagree.

Arrgh 4y ago

It's not an "alternative", it's still Android, just a fork of a fork.

mcv 4y ago
It's an alternative Android, rather than an alternative to Android. Or it's an alternative to stock-Android.

soufron 4y ago

I have used /e/ as my main phone for 1 year - and I am a heavy user. It’s a bliss! I also got a phone with /e/ installed on it for my 73 years old mother. She loved it. It’s really surprising to see how the bigtech monopoly has nothing to do with the quality of their services, but everything with their unfair practices - Microsoft yesterday, Google today.

em-bee 4y ago
pretty much the same story for me. started 3 years ago, and got a phone for my 70 year old mother almost two years ago. she gets help to install new apps, but otherwise it works just fine for her.
- soufron 4y ago
  And it’s « stable ». I mean it works and will keep on working for years.
- soco 4y ago
  How is /e/ making things easier for them? My folks are constantly puzzled by their galaxy phones: not only notifications and sudden app changes, but also touching the edges of the screen triggering unexpected things... What will another OS do better?
  - em-bee 4y ago
    well, the problem here is that the general market is not targeting elder people. /e/ at least doesn't so far have any sudden app changes, because their focus and selling point is usability and and privacy, and not the latest new and shiny

attah_ 4y ago

Calling it an alternative is an insult against actual alternatives. It's still Android, just less googly.

bornfreddy 4y ago
Cool, except... What alternatives are there? With the caveat that phone calls (roaming too), SMS and mobile data must work reliably. Is there an alternative that provides this? Librem 5 maybe? Last I checked neither PinePhone nor Purism were there yet.
- josefx 4y ago
  The problem with Android based "alternatives" is Googles licensing. The licensing agreements for Googles apps require that Google gets to decide which android forks device manufacturers are allowed to sell if they don't want to be completely cut of from Googles ecosystem. So if you actually plan to use it for anything bigger you wont even be able to find a manufacturer willing to touch it, even Amazon had problems getting the Kindle produced. Any attempt to de google Android will be stuck as a niche product for enthusiasts.
  - kubanczyk 4y ago
    It sounds interesting but I cannot connect the dots. So, the Google-authored apps' use can become illegal in future on a specific ("bigger") fork of Android you say? But that's just the license terms of Google apps. I don't understand what would a manufacturer be afraid of, exactly? (Does Kindle need any Google apps?...)
    - josefx 4y ago
      Most big manufacturers currently sell Google approved Android with Google apps. Selling even one not approved Android device voids the license for Google apps on the manufacturers entire existing lineup as far as I understand. It is either all or nothing. Imagine yourself convincing Samsung to dump entire warehouses filled with Google (TM) Android phones and any chance of future success in that market in the trash over a handful of ebook readers. That is what Amazon had to deal with.

solotronics 4y ago

Is there any Android alternative that works with Android Auto? One of the primary uses of my phone is plugging into my car to play music and navigate.

sfRattan 4y ago
I've been searching for an alternative to Android Auto itself. After an update some months ago, launching the app takes me to a settings panel declaring that Android Auto is no longer supported for phone screens (i.e. it is now only designed to run while linked to a car with a compatible display), and the app itself refuses to run as it used to on just the phone. Add that functionality to the Google graveyard, I guess...
- roumenguha 4y ago
  Possible workaround: downgrade to an older version and disable auto-update?
commoner 4y ago
I don't think Android Auto works without Google Play Services at this time. Here's the feature request for Android Auto support on microG: https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/897 https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/issues/897
yoavm 4y ago
Lineage works perfectly fine for me with Android Auto
- npteljes 4y ago
  Can you please share your specifics? Phone model, LineageOS version, Android Auto version if you can?
- aesh2Xa1 4y ago
  It will work if you install a Google Apps package, but not otherwise.

squarefoot 4y ago

From the /e/ Foundation website: "The easy-installer beta version supports 15 devices" This is the #1 problem, but it's not /e/ developers fault, as supporting devices is a time consuming and costly activity, and the risk of bricking an expensive device is just too high for normal users to want to try. Manufacturers are to blame. It's not a technical problem but rather a political one; manufacturers should be forced by law to unlock boot loaders and publish at least the bare minimum documentation enough for porting software to devices that became obsolete either by the introduction of a newer version, or after support has ceased. Until that happens, I'm afraid we'll see more and more projects supporting only a very small part of the available devices.

commoner 4y ago
I'd expect the installer to support more devices over time, since /e/ officially supports 269 devices: https://support.e.foundation/devices https://support.e.foundation/devices It's promising that more and more alternative Android distributions are offering installers to make them more accessible to average phone users. On the Linux phone side, even Ubuntu Touch has an installer that supports 81 devices: https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/installer/ https://devices.ubuntu-touch.io/installer/ But, device manufacturers need to make bootloaders unlockable for these installers to work, and I agree that regulation is a practical way to make this happen. I can see Europe taking the lead on this with the goal of reducing e-waste by encouraging the reuse of old devices.
- stkdump 4y ago
  That looks like a copy of the list of supported devices of lineage. I highly doubt that the e foundation can test their installer on so many devices. They (or their own developer community) would need to get access to these devices at least. I guess the only way to broaden support for the installer a lot would be to work on upstreaming it to the lineage project so that the broader community does the work for them.
  - commoner 4y ago
    LineageOS currently supports 179 models, so it's not a copy of the LineageOS device list.[1][2] These projects support different selections of devices. There are devices that are supported by /e/ and not by LineageOS, and vice versa. [1] https://www.lineageoslog.com/statistics https://www.lineageoslog.com/statistics [2] https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/

2-718-281-828 4y ago

I have been using LOS since 17.1 on OP3T and OP6. How would my experience with /e/ differ?

commoner 4y ago
How are you using Google services on LineageOS now? Do you have microG preinstalled (LineageOS for microG)[1], did you install GApps, or are you not using Google services at all? /e/ has microG installed, just like LineageOS for microG. Compared to the proprietary Google Play Services in GApps, microG is a FOSS library that allows apps to access Google services. microG lets you selectively enable/disable push notification access for individual apps that depend on Google's Firebase Cloud Messaging, and also lets you choose a location provider other than Google. On the other hand, microG is not compatible with all apps that depend on Google Play Services. For example, Android Auto and Google Pay are not supported. Also, /e/ and LineageOS support different versions for different devices. Since LineageOS supports Android 12 on OnePlus 6T,[2] while /e/ has that device on Android 11 (R),[3] LineageOS for microG may be a better choice on that device. Both /e/ and LineageOS support Android 11 on the OnePlus 3T.[4][5] [1] https://lineage.microg.org https://lineage.microg.org [2] https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/enchilada/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/enchilada/ [3] https://doc.e.foundation/devices/enchilada https://doc.e.foundation/devices/enchilada [4] https://doc.e.foundation/devices/oneplus3 https://doc.e.foundation/devices/oneplus3 [5] https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/oneplus3/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/oneplus3/
- 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  have been using microG (as LOS for microG) up until about two years ago. but it seemed less and less actively developed, so I switchted to vanilla LOS. No GApps. Everything I need works (even stuff like Signal or Google Maps). Only type of apps that don't work are some actively and unnecessarily screening for Google Services or stuff like Uber which uses an integrated map. > LineageOS for microG may be a better choice on that device LOS for microG always seemed a bit fishy - the way the project is run and executed. Seemed less transparent than vanilla LOS. microG's release schedule is a bit gappy for my taste. sometimes no updates or fixes for several months :/ https://doc.e.foundation/devices https://doc.e.foundation/devices > while /e/ has that device on Android 11 (R) The versioning of /e/ seems to be about as confusing as the project name itself but as far as I can tell from that table there is no device with a version beyond R. so, I'd assume they just need some more time to release it?

opan 4y ago

I'll never use a custom ROM that includes microg by default. LineageOS with no gapps of any kind is my preference. I can get apps from f-droid or even aurora store, and everything I need works. I don't want any google stuff on there, not even a slightly less sketchy version.

imiric 4y ago
Sure, but, unfortunately, a lot of apps require Google Play Services to work at all, so microG is the only sane alternative. The fact /e/OS includes it pre-configured OOB is a positive for my use case. My primary device runs GrapheneOS, but a secondary device with /e/OS is the next best thing for apps that refuse to work without Google Play Services. Or those that I just want to keep off my main device.
stkdump 4y ago
I might be misunderstanding it, but microg is not (like the name suggests) a stripped down version of the google services. It is a reimplementation of the APIs that the google services provide to installed apps. It doesn't reuse any code (it couldn't, because the google services are not open source) and doesn't connect to google servers, afaik.
- 8293048883 4y ago
  > doesn't connect to google servers Microg optionally supports Firebase Cloud Messaging for apps that require it for push notifications.
- npteljes 4y ago
  As per their motto, MicroG is "A free-as-in-freedom re-implementation of Google’s proprietary Android user space apps and libraries". They absolutely do connect to Google services, just not with the proprietary Google implementation of the softwares, but with a reimplementation. I think this is very similar to NewPipe for example. Google's proprietary services, with an open source frontend.

zzo38computer 4y ago

I think that they should reduce as much as possible, the background services, telemetry, animations, etc to try to allow battery power to last longer, reduce service fees for internet, etc. Privacy is one issue but it is not the only one. (Furthermore, some manufacturers will include hardware kill switches, which might be able to further reduce power requirements and improve privacy and security.) Functions can still be working if the user specifically activates and controls them, though. App permissions could be done by a proxy implementation; this allows better user controls, for example you can create two separate files with the same app and the files don't know each other (and later move them using file manager if wanted), or to make it access a empty contacts list or one filled in with random data instead of the actual data.

smetsjp 4y ago

I have been using for years. It is quite usable, improves every day and even replaces things like Google of Office365 clouds (in a self-hostable way). I recently installed on a Galaxy Tab S6 Lite (first version) and I now use it as a laptop whenever I need a very long battery life or something smaller than my full sized Linux laptop. And, it is a real product, one that is thought to be used.

PufPufPuf 4y ago

When the title said "Android alternative", I was actually expecting an alternative OS (like Sailfish or Ubuntu Touch), not a mere LineageOS fork. That's like calling Ubuntu a "Linux alternative".

yarg 4y ago
It's closer to calling Rocky Linux an alternative to RHEL.
dang 4y ago
Ok, we've Android-based it in the title above.

alestainer 4y ago

/e/ docs say it uses Android keyboard, wouldn't that be a source of a data leak?

commoner 4y ago
The "Android Keyboard (AOSP)"[1] in /e/ is a fork of the LineageOS keyboard.[2] Neither of these keyboards have network access. This is different from the keyboards that are preloaded on some Android phones, such as Gboard and Samsung Keyboard, which do connect to the internet. [1] https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/android_packages_inputmethods_LatinIME https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/android_packages_inputmetho... [2] https://github.com/LineageOS/android_packages_inputmethods_LatinIME https://github.com/LineageOS/android_packages_inputmethods_L...
- Ank_S 4y ago
  Sadly, most of newer smartphones are getting shipped with more default google apps like Phone, Messaging & Keyboard. AOSP alternatives of these apps works well, but manufacturers are choosing/forced to choose more Google apps as default which is really sad. I don't want Google updating "Phone" app every few days.

EastSmith 4y ago

So I went and check the instructions how to manually install /e/ on a device here [0] I was welcomed with 5 types of warnings why not to do it. And I decided not to do it. But here what the instructions should have been: 1. Adb - make sure you have a adb connection. More information here. 2. Run this script from you computer. 3. At the beginning of the script check a checkbox acknowledging that the data will be lost, and there is a small chance your device gets bricked. https://support.e.foundation/devices/beyondx/install https://support.e.foundation/devices/beyondx/install

COGlory 4y ago
15 devices are supported by the easy installer. https://doc.e.foundation/easy-installer https://doc.e.foundation/easy-installer Blame the device manufacturers for the rest.

Ank_S 4y ago

They used to have a shady app store when I last used it, sourced from cleanapk.org https://nervuri.net/e/apps https://nervuri.net/e/apps Now, they have opted for forking "Aurora Store" than to choose more closer FOSS alternative like "F-droid". https://www.xda-developers.com/murena-one-review/ https://www.xda-developers.com/murena-one-review/

cat_plus_plus 4y ago

If you like alternative services, great, but small companies are also prone to getting hacked, don't have resources to fight government warrants and can just go under and lose your data. Many store unencrypted data on common cloud providers like Amazon.

_rdvw 4y ago
No hack required, they leaked data of users themselves: https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may/41252/10 https://community.e.foundation/t/service-announcement-26-may... And won't offer Nextcloud's E2EE option due to concerns with data loss.
- npteljes 4y ago
  That's a ridiculous issue. I feel better for hosting it myself.

xrd 4y ago

I've been reading for a while about LineageOS. If i recall correctly, i felt like the camera didn't work at all. It was my takeaway that you couldn't have a "full" phone (meaning, calls, sms, camera, full network, etc) if you were planning on migrating away from iOS or Android from the carrier. Looks like the e phone has the full experience. I would prefer to buy an older android phone and install my own OS so I'm able to switch away if I want to. Is there a good option if that's the desire?

ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
It depends on your phone. LineageOS works entirely on mine (asus z2 or z3, I don't remember), no compromises needed. edit: Forgot to mention you have to install microg in addition to LineageOS to get notifications.
npteljes 4y ago
The camera issue is real. Phone cameras are kinda bad, because they are very limited, and so, a lot of the beautiful magic comes from software. Samsung, quite horrible, put some magic into their kernel, as well as into their camera software. Therefore, one can't just use their proprietary camera app, on a different base system. You can't even shoot slo-mo videos either; I tried the S7 and now the S9 and neither can do it with LineageOS. The still images are not bad with OpenCamera though, although I can't say I'm a connoisseur either. So full experience? No. But you can slap it on an older phone and enjoy a system that's never even supported officially, and now it's being updated every month. Some rough edges here and there. I'm personally a happy user.

rd07 4y ago

I have installed /e/ on my old Xiaomi phone for months now, and it is amazing. The OS is stable, and I can install many apps from the apps store. It also being updated frequently, so at least it has the latest security patch covered. If only my phone doesn't have a charging problem (it is a hardware problem), I might have used it as my main phone.

Ava433 4y ago

EricHolden12 4y ago

Store brand iOS

_rdvw 4y ago

I'm biased as a maintainer of my own OS, but there are severe issues with /e/OS: https://divestos.org/misc/e.txt https://divestos.org/misc/e.txt And it is honestly sad to see, because they could be a real viable option and instead choose to largely ignore or hand-wave away these issues.

josephcsible 4y ago
> - Enables Safetynet checks by default which downloads and executes obfuscated proprietary code from Google > - Includes proprietary Google Widevine DRM on nearly all devices While proprietary code, obfuscation, and DRM are all evil, if /e/OS didn't support these things, then a lot of very popular apps wouldn't work on it, which would make it a lot less viable as a platform. Refusing to do those things wouldn't result in any less of those evil technologies. It would just result in less /e/OS adoption.
- npteljes 4y ago
  Linux solves a similar problem sometimes by asking the user if they'd like that feature or not. I'd really appreciate that, of course, while understanding that all these need a lot of extra effort.
- _rdvw 4y ago
  My gripe is more so the outdated/insecure browser/webview, PDF viewer, and Tor daemon.
npteljes 4y ago
Very good list. As a daily user of /e/, I can attest to most of the concerns, which I agree are valid. Advanced Privacy is a major WTF. Using TOR without mentioning it is strange. And so is their all-or-nothing location faker tool. Sounded nice until I wanted to use a navigation app, which too got my fake location. Then I had to disable the faking, making my location available to all applications - quite a headscratcher. CleanAPK is another WTF baked-in dependency. I suppose they are running it themselves, just not in the open, because of copyright and other issues maybe? I don't know, they don't tell me, and why are we left guessing such an important thing on a privacy phone? An update also borked my phone, forcing it into a reboot loop. Granted, it was from 0.something to 1.something, but still, it was the next update in line, I thought the updater could manage it. Aside from these, I'm still a happy user of the system. I appreciate the degoogling effort over the mainline LineageOS. I'd like to have a question about DivestOS. Which device(s) do you regard as the main one(s)? I mean, which do you think will receive the most updates, the longest support, and so on? I'd wager the ones marked "Tested working" are the most healthy?

foobarbecue 4y ago

please tell me this is pronounced "slashyslash"

willio58 4y ago
Every time this OS is linked on HN half the comments are about pronunciation. That’s probably not a good thing when it comes to marketing..
- npteljes 4y ago
  I agree. It's good that it's distinct, but it's very hard to pronounce or google.
  - foobarbecue 4y ago
    Not to mention include in filenames.

NonNefarious 4y ago

The asinine name gets an F.

ElectronBadger 4y ago

I've been running /e/ OS on Fairphone 3+ for the last 2 years or so. My general experience is very good, the only serious downside is that I cannot purchase a premium license for Locus Map (which has to be purchased via Google app store).

Ava433 4y ago

michannne 4y ago

Minor unrelated, but very happy with how quickly the webpage loaded and how it's just pure content (viewing from mobile)