4 ms·

Alternative label: "Why the government spends more of your money to take even more of your money, only to give it to eastern europe or israel"

mattkrause 4y ago
FWIW, I read somewhere that increased enforcement is expected to be revenue-positive, with something like a 4x multiplier: the IRS is currently leaving lots of owed money on the table for want of someone to collect it.
- drost 4y ago
  It's worth nothing. The government isn't supposed to generate revenue
  - mattkrause 4y ago
    If you don't want roads, defense, (some) healthcare, education, research, or any of the myriad other forms of infrastructure that makes civilization work, then sure, you don't need revenue. If you do, then I would prefer that everyone pay what we've (collectively) decided that they owe. In that sense, a revenue-positive measure is good two ways: spend a buck, get $4 AND it enhances the rule of law by making everyone pay what they owe.
    - albatross13 4y ago
      My state can handle all of that, I don't need a federal body that's 24tn in debt to steal even more of my money.
    - tomatotomato37 4y ago
      The thing is, the government already has enough income to do all that if they stop doing stupid shit like wasting the GDP equivalent of Mexico on invading desert shitholes or mass producing super-advanced fighter jets when our next closest peer can still be fought off with our cold war surplus But please, tell me more how giving my money to an entity who routinely invests money in "local" corporations only for them to immediately do buybacks and disappear the money into the haze of wall street economics improves my quality of life
      - mattkrause 4y ago
        I'd argue that running the IRS like this is one of those dumb things. There's a massive army of people manually transcribing forms in 2022. One old-timer (and his ability to turn new parts of a lathe!) is all that keeps a massive, country-wide system running. It's like the definition of penny-wise and pound-foolish.
    - drost 4y ago
      How much do you think roads, defense, health care, education really cost? We've given Ukraine 55 billion dollars. We clearly have cash to spare. Why do we need to raise more?
      - LorenPechtel 4y ago
        Most of what we have given Ukraine is weapons that were already paid for.
      - albatross13 4y ago
        I know the answer to this one: because we are taxed without actual representation. All the good buzzwords apply here- cash grab, wealth transfer, class warfare.
      - mattkrause 4y ago
        Do you cheat on your taxes? I don't, so the net result of better enforcement for me is either a) I pay the same, and the government has more money or b) I pay less--and the treasury has the same amount. Reasonable people can disagree about whether `a` or `b` is better, but I don't see how "we need this inefficient, broken system to create ad hoc tax breaks for people willing to press their luck" is anywhere close to either of them.
        albatross13 4y ago
        c) due to crippling interest rates and surging debt, the government increases the tax rate on the middle class by 15%. with its now 160k auditors, you better comply :)
        User23 4y ago
        You do realize that you are the one that pays the cost of an audit right? You're looking at potentially tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to effectively prove your innocence.
    - EricE 4y ago
      The ONLY thing in your list that is the purview of the federal government is defense. Seriously people, read the freaking constitution. It really isn't that many pages (purposefully!)
      - mattkrause 4y ago
        Infrastructure is clearly in there too. - "for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"; - "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;" - "To establish Post Offices and post Roads"
rileymat2 4y ago
In theory, they will not be taking my money because I file an honest return, the focus of audits is people who have been cheating us all. Sure some innocent people will get wrapped up in audits, but I’d bet the percent is not as high as we would expect.
- tmn 4y ago
  They’re taking your money via taxes to fund the irs. That said, it’s a drop in the bucket. This system is unhinged
  - albatross13 4y ago
    The cost is a drop in the bucket, the end result is anything but. The people on HN play checkers, our politicians and elite bankers are playing chess. Why do you need to double the auditing arm of an organization that already doesn't audit the ruling class? Because, when you expand and increase the middle class tax bracket (i.e. those who actually fucking pay taxes), you want to make sure your pay pig class keeps paying. I hope you boys are ready :)
babypuncher 4y ago
They won't be taking more of my money, because I don't lie on my tax returns. I can't speak for the rest of HN, but this is a truly bizarre thing to complain about.
- albatross13 4y ago
  You don't lie on your tax returns, YET. There's an awful lot of money required to keep this beast going, and it's only getting worse. Our federal debt is 24tn, the M1 is fucking huge https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL, how long until your income tax rate is 40%? 50%? This IRS growth isn't to address an existing problem, this is preparation for what's to come :)
- Banyonite 4y ago
  I didn't lie on my tax returns, either. In 2011 the IRS kicked off an audit, saying that I owed a little more than $50k in unpaid taxes because of inappropriate deductions. (The auditor was a contractor, who's company I found out later, was paid based upon "successful" claims against taxpayers after an audit.) After contacting the accountant that does our taxes and asking her to represent us, she showed up in the guy's cubicle, filed the paperwork for dispute, and started the audit process. A week after she showed up to represent us, we received a letter from the IRS stating that we now owed north of $100k. Felt like intimidation to me. After a week of our accountant going over each and every scrap of paper with this guy, turned out that the IRS owed us $2300, which we agreed to give to our accountant for representing us. The contract auditor, according to our accountant, was belligerent and abusive. (edit- we wouldn't have had a chance against this guy without our accountant) Yes, there are plenty of people that lie on their returns, but I've come across many, many stories like mine as well. Telling the truth on a return is no guarantee that the IRS will not audit you, and I believe that uncalled-for audits are much more prevalent than is generally believed. (Edit) Not exactly the same thing, but when you say "... because I don't lie on my tax returns." it reminds me of "If you've done nothing wrong, you don't have anything to worry about". The question I ask to both of those statements is "According to whom?"
  - albatross13 4y ago

mattkrause 4y ago

FWIW, I read somewhere that increased enforcement is expected to be revenue-positive, with something like a 4x multiplier: the IRS is currently leaving lots of owed money on the table for want of someone to collect it.

drost 4y ago
It's worth nothing. The government isn't supposed to generate revenue
- mattkrause 4y ago
  If you don't want roads, defense, (some) healthcare, education, research, or any of the myriad other forms of infrastructure that makes civilization work, then sure, you don't need revenue. If you do, then I would prefer that everyone pay what we've (collectively) decided that they owe. In that sense, a revenue-positive measure is good two ways: spend a buck, get $4 AND it enhances the rule of law by making everyone pay what they owe.
  - albatross13 4y ago
    My state can handle all of that, I don't need a federal body that's 24tn in debt to steal even more of my money.
  - tomatotomato37 4y ago
    The thing is, the government already has enough income to do all that if they stop doing stupid shit like wasting the GDP equivalent of Mexico on invading desert shitholes or mass producing super-advanced fighter jets when our next closest peer can still be fought off with our cold war surplus But please, tell me more how giving my money to an entity who routinely invests money in "local" corporations only for them to immediately do buybacks and disappear the money into the haze of wall street economics improves my quality of life
    - mattkrause 4y ago
      I'd argue that running the IRS like this is one of those dumb things. There's a massive army of people manually transcribing forms in 2022. One old-timer (and his ability to turn new parts of a lathe!) is all that keeps a massive, country-wide system running. It's like the definition of penny-wise and pound-foolish.
  - drost 4y ago
    How much do you think roads, defense, health care, education really cost? We've given Ukraine 55 billion dollars. We clearly have cash to spare. Why do we need to raise more?
    - LorenPechtel 4y ago
      Most of what we have given Ukraine is weapons that were already paid for.
    - albatross13 4y ago
      I know the answer to this one: because we are taxed without actual representation. All the good buzzwords apply here- cash grab, wealth transfer, class warfare.
    - mattkrause 4y ago
      Do you cheat on your taxes? I don't, so the net result of better enforcement for me is either a) I pay the same, and the government has more money or b) I pay less--and the treasury has the same amount. Reasonable people can disagree about whether `a` or `b` is better, but I don't see how "we need this inefficient, broken system to create ad hoc tax breaks for people willing to press their luck" is anywhere close to either of them.
      - albatross13 4y ago
        c) due to crippling interest rates and surging debt, the government increases the tax rate on the middle class by 15%. with its now 160k auditors, you better comply :)
      - User23 4y ago
        You do realize that you are the one that pays the cost of an audit right? You're looking at potentially tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to effectively prove your innocence.
  - EricE 4y ago
    The ONLY thing in your list that is the purview of the federal government is defense. Seriously people, read the freaking constitution. It really isn't that many pages (purposefully!)
    - mattkrause 4y ago
      Infrastructure is clearly in there too. - "for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings"; - "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;" - "To establish Post Offices and post Roads"

rileymat2 4y ago

In theory, they will not be taking my money because I file an honest return, the focus of audits is people who have been cheating us all. Sure some innocent people will get wrapped up in audits, but I’d bet the percent is not as high as we would expect.

tmn 4y ago
They’re taking your money via taxes to fund the irs. That said, it’s a drop in the bucket. This system is unhinged
- albatross13 4y ago
  The cost is a drop in the bucket, the end result is anything but. The people on HN play checkers, our politicians and elite bankers are playing chess. Why do you need to double the auditing arm of an organization that already doesn't audit the ruling class? Because, when you expand and increase the middle class tax bracket (i.e. those who actually fucking pay taxes), you want to make sure your pay pig class keeps paying. I hope you boys are ready :)

babypuncher 4y ago

They won't be taking more of my money, because I don't lie on my tax returns. I can't speak for the rest of HN, but this is a truly bizarre thing to complain about.

albatross13 4y ago
You don't lie on your tax returns, YET. There's an awful lot of money required to keep this beast going, and it's only getting worse. Our federal debt is 24tn, the M1 is fucking huge https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL, how long until your income tax rate is 40%? 50%? This IRS growth isn't to address an existing problem, this is preparation for what's to come :)
Banyonite 4y ago
I didn't lie on my tax returns, either. In 2011 the IRS kicked off an audit, saying that I owed a little more than $50k in unpaid taxes because of inappropriate deductions. (The auditor was a contractor, who's company I found out later, was paid based upon "successful" claims against taxpayers after an audit.) After contacting the accountant that does our taxes and asking her to represent us, she showed up in the guy's cubicle, filed the paperwork for dispute, and started the audit process. A week after she showed up to represent us, we received a letter from the IRS stating that we now owed north of $100k. Felt like intimidation to me. After a week of our accountant going over each and every scrap of paper with this guy, turned out that the IRS owed us $2300, which we agreed to give to our accountant for representing us. The contract auditor, according to our accountant, was belligerent and abusive. (edit- we wouldn't have had a chance against this guy without our accountant) Yes, there are plenty of people that lie on their returns, but I've come across many, many stories like mine as well. Telling the truth on a return is no guarantee that the IRS will not audit you, and I believe that uncalled-for audits are much more prevalent than is generally believed. (Edit) Not exactly the same thing, but when you say "... because I don't lie on my tax returns." it reminds me of "If you've done nothing wrong, you don't have anything to worry about". The question I ask to both of those statements is "According to whom?"
- albatross13 4y ago