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Ditto. My view of this disparity in outlooks now is that the important thing is to be honest with yourself about your nature, i.e. figure out if you're a slacke

Ditto. My view of this disparity in outlooks now is that the important thing is to be honest with yourself about your nature, i.e. figure out if you're a slacker or a go-getter. Some people take comfort in coasting and consuming, they likely never needed a buddhist parable to figure that out. I could attempt to give myself "permission" to do nothing using an -ism but I can't believe it, and I don't find it satisfying. Striving affords a higher-order level of living. I certainly had to "try" to resolve issues like insomnia, and had to "try" to create new habits, "try" to reach a state of flow at work, "try" to strive towards mastery in an art. I'm actually more perplexed by creatives who would suggest they don't actually try, but I imagine this is only because they've created habits long ago, sparked by a mere interest, to the extent that biasing towards action (pursuing those habits) requires no effort. I found myself having to create new habits because I was in a state of complete disarray, purely trying to avoid pain. As for Bukowski, he was an alcoholic and seemingly a miserable misanthrope. Seems like "don't try" was of little comfort.

nickelcitymario 4y ago
"Don't try" was his take on a lifetime of trying. He failed in all areas of his life until he hit it off as a writer in his 60s (after decades of rejection). In other words, his biggest regret was all that effort he made. All it did was make him a miserable misanthrope. It was only when he let go of his expectations and stopped trying so hard that he started finding success.
- slothtrop 4y ago
  The success was incidental, but ultimately not trying didn't make him happy. That's the point, they're the words of a miserable man. I don't think misery scales with effort. It might with a sense of entitlement to monetary success or self-perception of failure for failing to reach arbitrary heights that have nothing to do with the art. The antidote is perspective not inaction.
  - nickelcitymario 4y ago
    "Don't try" != "inaction". It means letting go of expectations. The wind blows to and fro with incredibly amounts of energy, but there's no "try". The lion doesn't try to hunt. It simply hunts, and sometimes that results in a meal. It doesn't sit around wondering why it's such a failure as a lion. And it doesn't gather trinkets to prove how successful it is. In other words, it doesn't obsess about its own happiness. Would you say Yoda believed in inaction? Do or do not. There is no try. The "words of a miserable man" were his take on why he was miserable. My interpretation, in any event, is he was saying that all that effort and caring about success and worrying about what others thought... all of that made him miserable and he wished he hadn't bothered with any of that. In other words, I didn't bring him up as an example to follow. I brought him up as a word of caution. "Try" too hard and you might become a miserable misanthrope obsessed with all your perceived failures.
    - slothtrop 4y ago
      Doing, unless we've already instilled a habit on auto-pilot, requires effort to varying degrees. That is trying. It's impossible to divorce. I think letting go of expectations is a positive, but I think the aphorism in question does not translate to it. Cognitive trappings have nothing to do with effort. Effort in itself can be rewarding.
      - nickelcitymario 4y ago
        Sounds we're just arguing about the definition of the word "try". I'm ok with adopting your definition, I suppose, but "let go of expectations" doesn't quite capture it either. I suppose there may simply not be a word for exactly what I'm talking about, and what I believe Bukowski and the buddhists and stoics and Yoda are all referring to. They're not opposed to the expenditure of energy, which is what effort is. They, and I, are referring to... striving, perhaps? The combination of pursuing something and being attached to the anticipated or desired result. To me, "try" comes closest to that. But I recognize you use the word in a more precise manner and are probably correct to do so.

nickelcitymario 4y ago

"Don't try" was his take on a lifetime of trying. He failed in all areas of his life until he hit it off as a writer in his 60s (after decades of rejection). In other words, his biggest regret was all that effort he made. All it did was make him a miserable misanthrope. It was only when he let go of his expectations and stopped trying so hard that he started finding success.

slothtrop 4y ago
The success was incidental, but ultimately not trying didn't make him happy. That's the point, they're the words of a miserable man. I don't think misery scales with effort. It might with a sense of entitlement to monetary success or self-perception of failure for failing to reach arbitrary heights that have nothing to do with the art. The antidote is perspective not inaction.
- nickelcitymario 4y ago
  "Don't try" != "inaction". It means letting go of expectations. The wind blows to and fro with incredibly amounts of energy, but there's no "try". The lion doesn't try to hunt. It simply hunts, and sometimes that results in a meal. It doesn't sit around wondering why it's such a failure as a lion. And it doesn't gather trinkets to prove how successful it is. In other words, it doesn't obsess about its own happiness. Would you say Yoda believed in inaction? Do or do not. There is no try. The "words of a miserable man" were his take on why he was miserable. My interpretation, in any event, is he was saying that all that effort and caring about success and worrying about what others thought... all of that made him miserable and he wished he hadn't bothered with any of that. In other words, I didn't bring him up as an example to follow. I brought him up as a word of caution. "Try" too hard and you might become a miserable misanthrope obsessed with all your perceived failures.
  - slothtrop 4y ago
    Doing, unless we've already instilled a habit on auto-pilot, requires effort to varying degrees. That is trying. It's impossible to divorce. I think letting go of expectations is a positive, but I think the aphorism in question does not translate to it. Cognitive trappings have nothing to do with effort. Effort in itself can be rewarding.
    - nickelcitymario 4y ago
      Sounds we're just arguing about the definition of the word "try". I'm ok with adopting your definition, I suppose, but "let go of expectations" doesn't quite capture it either. I suppose there may simply not be a word for exactly what I'm talking about, and what I believe Bukowski and the buddhists and stoics and Yoda are all referring to. They're not opposed to the expenditure of energy, which is what effort is. They, and I, are referring to... striving, perhaps? The combination of pursuing something and being attached to the anticipated or desired result. To me, "try" comes closest to that. But I recognize you use the word in a more precise manner and are probably correct to do so.