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Because then small states would have little reason to remain in the union. Maine, Alaska, Hawaii... what's the point of being a far-off-forgotten small populat

Because then small states would have little reason to remain in the union. Maine, Alaska, Hawaii... what's the point of being a far-off-forgotten small population state to a superpower if the other neighboring nation is offering better protection of my interests? The Senate was designed to ensure that even small states had their interests represented and not drowned out in the tyranny of the majority. The Senate was specifically designed to prevent the challenges faced by the late Roman empire which was constantly putting down far-off remote provincial rebellions. They had to constantly move whole armies from one side of the empire to another putting down one rebellion after another - often supported by the neighboring unfriendly nation. Without the Senate, Russia would have had a much easier time starting "independence" movements in Alaska during the Cold War.

jhbadger 4y ago
Lots of countries have states, provinces, departments, and the like each with some degree of local government, but relatively few of them give them so much power at the national level as the US does in its Senate. I would have thought after the Civil War more work would have been done to get people to identify with the US more than with their particular state. If that was done, it doesn't matter how big or small your state is -- the important thing is your vote is the same as everybody else's in the nation.
- dahfizz 4y ago
  The EU does exactly that with the counsel and the commission. It doesn't make sense to compare the USA as a whole to other, much smaller countries. Federalism doesn't make sense on a small scale.
divided 4y ago
I think this might be an argument based on fantasy. The best parallel might be the end of colonialism in different nations, but that’s a stretch. Those territories which declared their independence were often unrepresented (not proportionally represented) and typically gained their independence through war. I don’t think any state or territory of the US would truly dare to face the US military alone. You mention Maine and Alaska which I imagine you believe would join Canada? Canada doesn’t give each territory equal representation. They’ve also not suffered a territory leaving despite the various secession campaigns (US has those too even with the Senate, strange). I think there’s just very little evidence the Senate is some magic fairy dust that keeps our country together when many, many other countries don’t have such a similar body and they’re not all falling to pieces.
- stuckinhell 4y ago
  Why would it be fantasy ? Most American states are bigger that most European countries ! They absolutely have the resources to do it if they willed it.
  - divided 4y ago
    It’s fantasy because it’s just not how the world works. Territories aren’t just up and leaving Canada because there isn’t a body like our Senate. I cannot think of any territory within any developed nation successfully leaving the country. You have to look at like colonial powers losing colonies or perhaps the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Very, very different material conditions than the idea of Maine leaving because there isn’t a Senate. Individual states do not have the resources to oppose our military. They may be larger than European countries, but they don’t have the military power of those European countries and our country’s military is stronger than the entire EU. Even if a state like Texas were to revolt, it would be notably less successful than Ukraine is versus Russia. Also never mind that this revolting state wouldn’t be receiving foreign aid (I don’t think even hostile countries like China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea would even attempt to get involved in an internal conflict). It is pure fantasy to believe an individual state could succeed in seceding from the US. Now could a large enough coalition of states succeed? Sure. But I was responding to the parent’s idea that Maine or Alaska or Hawaii would just randomly decide to up and go because they didn’t have the Senate.
    - pauldenton 4y ago
      If you look into the history of the Confederation of Canada, smaller provinces did have these concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Prince_Edward_Island#Overview_of_federal_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Prince_Edward_Isla... "Under the Canadian Constitution, Prince Edward Island is entitled to four seats in the Senate of Canada, and a corresponding minimum of four seats in the House of Commons of Canada. This results in PEI being considerably overrepresented in the current House, as six of Canada's ten provinces are to varying degrees." 6 out of 10 Canadian provinces are over-represented, like Wyoming, Rhode Island or Alaska
yongjik 4y ago
> Maine, Alaska, Hawaii... what's the point of being a far-off-forgotten small population state to a superpower if the other neighboring nation is offering better protection of my interests? That's like asking, what's the point of Truckee being a far-off-forgotten small population city of California if the neighboring state of Nevada is offering better protection of their interests? Well, for starters, Truckee leaving CA and joining NV would require an awful amount of paperwork (and good luck convincing even half of the population that it's worth the hassle), and what would NV offer that CA doesn't? Instead of being a forgotten small population city of California, now it gets to be a forgotten small population city of Nevada.
moistly 4y ago
> Because then small states would have little reason to remain in the union. Other than, say, the absolutely immense advantage of belonging to the most prosperous, most powerful country in the world. But, yes, undoubtedly thee are quite a few states that are narcissistic enough to think they’re better off going it alone, their tiny population of a few hundred thousand and their easily corruptible political goofs versus the economic, political, and media forces of major world powers.
- pauldenton 4y ago
  So why did Roman provinces on the periphery keep rebelling and attempting to leave the most prosperous, most powerful country in the world. Surely Rome would never fall, as nobody would want to leave the most prosperous, most powerful country in the world.
- ethbr0 4y ago
  > their tiny population of a few hundred thousand California and Texas, the obvious examples, would be the ~37th (around Ukraine and Canada) and ~51st (around Nepal and Venezuela) largest countries by population in the world.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - moistly 4y ago
    You’ll note that OP specified small states.

jhbadger 4y ago

Lots of countries have states, provinces, departments, and the like each with some degree of local government, but relatively few of them give them so much power at the national level as the US does in its Senate. I would have thought after the Civil War more work would have been done to get people to identify with the US more than with their particular state. If that was done, it doesn't matter how big or small your state is -- the important thing is your vote is the same as everybody else's in the nation.

dahfizz 4y ago
The EU does exactly that with the counsel and the commission. It doesn't make sense to compare the USA as a whole to other, much smaller countries. Federalism doesn't make sense on a small scale.

divided 4y ago

I think this might be an argument based on fantasy. The best parallel might be the end of colonialism in different nations, but that’s a stretch. Those territories which declared their independence were often unrepresented (not proportionally represented) and typically gained their independence through war. I don’t think any state or territory of the US would truly dare to face the US military alone. You mention Maine and Alaska which I imagine you believe would join Canada? Canada doesn’t give each territory equal representation. They’ve also not suffered a territory leaving despite the various secession campaigns (US has those too even with the Senate, strange). I think there’s just very little evidence the Senate is some magic fairy dust that keeps our country together when many, many other countries don’t have such a similar body and they’re not all falling to pieces.

stuckinhell 4y ago
Why would it be fantasy ? Most American states are bigger that most European countries ! They absolutely have the resources to do it if they willed it.
- divided 4y ago
  It’s fantasy because it’s just not how the world works. Territories aren’t just up and leaving Canada because there isn’t a body like our Senate. I cannot think of any territory within any developed nation successfully leaving the country. You have to look at like colonial powers losing colonies or perhaps the dissolution of Yugoslavia. Very, very different material conditions than the idea of Maine leaving because there isn’t a Senate. Individual states do not have the resources to oppose our military. They may be larger than European countries, but they don’t have the military power of those European countries and our country’s military is stronger than the entire EU. Even if a state like Texas were to revolt, it would be notably less successful than Ukraine is versus Russia. Also never mind that this revolting state wouldn’t be receiving foreign aid (I don’t think even hostile countries like China, Russia, Iran, or North Korea would even attempt to get involved in an internal conflict). It is pure fantasy to believe an individual state could succeed in seceding from the US. Now could a large enough coalition of states succeed? Sure. But I was responding to the parent’s idea that Maine or Alaska or Hawaii would just randomly decide to up and go because they didn’t have the Senate.
  - pauldenton 4y ago
    If you look into the history of the Confederation of Canada, smaller provinces did have these concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Prince_Edward_Island#Overview_of_federal_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Prince_Edward_Isla... "Under the Canadian Constitution, Prince Edward Island is entitled to four seats in the Senate of Canada, and a corresponding minimum of four seats in the House of Commons of Canada. This results in PEI being considerably overrepresented in the current House, as six of Canada's ten provinces are to varying degrees." 6 out of 10 Canadian provinces are over-represented, like Wyoming, Rhode Island or Alaska

yongjik 4y ago

> Maine, Alaska, Hawaii... what's the point of being a far-off-forgotten small population state to a superpower if the other neighboring nation is offering better protection of my interests? That's like asking, what's the point of Truckee being a far-off-forgotten small population city of California if the neighboring state of Nevada is offering better protection of their interests? Well, for starters, Truckee leaving CA and joining NV would require an awful amount of paperwork (and good luck convincing even half of the population that it's worth the hassle), and what would NV offer that CA doesn't? Instead of being a forgotten small population city of California, now it gets to be a forgotten small population city of Nevada.

moistly 4y ago

> Because then small states would have little reason to remain in the union. Other than, say, the absolutely immense advantage of belonging to the most prosperous, most powerful country in the world. But, yes, undoubtedly thee are quite a few states that are narcissistic enough to think they’re better off going it alone, their tiny population of a few hundred thousand and their easily corruptible political goofs versus the economic, political, and media forces of major world powers.

pauldenton 4y ago
So why did Roman provinces on the periphery keep rebelling and attempting to leave the most prosperous, most powerful country in the world. Surely Rome would never fall, as nobody would want to leave the most prosperous, most powerful country in the world.
ethbr0 4y ago
> their tiny population of a few hundred thousand California and Texas, the obvious examples, would be the ~37th (around Ukraine and Canada) and ~51st (around Nepal and Venezuela) largest countries by population in the world.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- moistly 4y ago
  You’ll note that OP specified small states.