4 ms·

Despite wealth inequality you can have societies which aren’t at each other’s throats. Not to say we want that society, but that is not directly related. I al

by mc32 4y ago

Despite wealth inequality you can have societies which aren’t at each other’s throats. Not to say we want that society, but that is not directly related. I also think that while the suggestion is facile on the surface, there is something more psychologically substantive —I’m not sure it’s sufficient but it certainly would help. The root of our issues in the US is the selling out the lower classes’s potential by the government and industry to offshoring, thus reducing their economic power and outlook. Of course if we hadn’t pursued globalization we’d be less advanced and things would be more expensive —imagine a kind of Switzerland, but while the potential is less open ended the lower classes and the middle classes would be less diverged from themselves as well as from the wealthy. So an executive to staff disparity might be 10x instead of 100x.

pydry 4y ago
I think it's only theoretically possible, in practical terms it is not. With enormous wealth inequality you get an oligarchy class who will use their wealth/power to chip away at the societal stabilizers that would keep the worst excesses of wealth inequality in check like the social safety net, strong labor rights, etc. In any case, I agree that selling out the lower classes for is pretty much guaranteed to make them angry, resentful and susceptible to the charms of right wing populists wanting to ascend to power upon a platform of blaming one or more convenient minority scapegoats.
southerntofu 4y ago
> Despite wealth inequality you can have societies which aren’t at each other’s throats. Can you name just one civilization with staggering inequalities which has not been subject to social conflict? > The root of our issues in the US is the selling out the lower classes’s potential by the government and industry to offshoring, thus reducing their economic power. I don't think this argument holds. The US was the theatre or major class struggle long before the neoliberal offshoring waves. Popular riots and massacres by the local authorities is nothing new, see for example the battle of Blair Mountain in 1921: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain More to the point, the GDP/capita in the USA has kept growing over the years despite offshoring. The fact that some parts of the population struggle to feed themselves is due to conscious wealth-capturing schemes from the rich and government-friendly corporations. Or as Warren Buffet once put it, "Actually, there’s been class warfare going on for the last 20 years, and my class has won". When the people realize how duped they've been with empty promises and scapegoats, they are bound to loose their shit and be at someone's throat.
- mc32 4y ago
  50 years ago a high school graduate could get a decent job, buy a house and raise a family without too much sweat. Even HS dropouts had a fighting chance. That ain’t happenin no more. As Buffett alludes to, this is recent. In the last 30 years -as a consequence of offshoring. Cobbling shoes and pickin up garbage ain’t glamorous but they're a living. All the mills closing shop in the south affected working class black employment, in the northeast it affected working class white employment. But add up all the industries affected. Now we’re beginning to offshore food. The laborers who used to cross the border for jobs now have jobs in their own countries which may be better may be worse… It’s all done by a greedy gov and greedy industrialists who turned to globalism and away from supporting local economies to the detriment of the lower and middle classes.
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  > Can you name just one civilization with staggering inequalities which has not been subject to social conflict? There are no societies, especially unequal or not, without social conflict. If there are no external enemies internal ones will swiftly be found. “Only the dead are safe; only the dead have seen the end of war.” George Santayana
- ginko 4y ago
  >Can you name just one civilization with staggering inequalities which has not been subject to social conflict? Sweden has rather high level of wealth inequality (about the same level as the US) while being quite stable politically and socially. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_in...
  - southerntofu 4y ago
    > Sweden (...) quite stable politically and socially. There are riots in Sweden too [0], and what some consider to be terrorist activities from the far left to the far right [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disorder_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disor... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Sweden
panick21_ 4y ago
People want to find these grand narratives. But if you actually look into the data, the real cost are actually mostly related to health care, car ownership and housing police (or city/town planning). If the US fixed its city planning, stopped pushing every family to have many cars and managed its health care system with even minimal efficiency the data would look much different. Offshoring is a bad argument, because that has happened in many places to a large extent and the results are not that American.

by mc32 4y ago

pydry 4y ago

I think it's only theoretically possible, in practical terms it is not. With enormous wealth inequality you get an oligarchy class who will use their wealth/power to chip away at the societal stabilizers that would keep the worst excesses of wealth inequality in check like the social safety net, strong labor rights, etc. In any case, I agree that selling out the lower classes for is pretty much guaranteed to make them angry, resentful and susceptible to the charms of right wing populists wanting to ascend to power upon a platform of blaming one or more convenient minority scapegoats.

southerntofu 4y ago

> Despite wealth inequality you can have societies which aren’t at each other’s throats. Can you name just one civilization with staggering inequalities which has not been subject to social conflict? > The root of our issues in the US is the selling out the lower classes’s potential by the government and industry to offshoring, thus reducing their economic power. I don't think this argument holds. The US was the theatre or major class struggle long before the neoliberal offshoring waves. Popular riots and massacres by the local authorities is nothing new, see for example the battle of Blair Mountain in 1921: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain More to the point, the GDP/capita in the USA has kept growing over the years despite offshoring. The fact that some parts of the population struggle to feed themselves is due to conscious wealth-capturing schemes from the rich and government-friendly corporations. Or as Warren Buffet once put it, "Actually, there’s been class warfare going on for the last 20 years, and my class has won". When the people realize how duped they've been with empty promises and scapegoats, they are bound to loose their shit and be at someone's throat.

mc32 4y ago
50 years ago a high school graduate could get a decent job, buy a house and raise a family without too much sweat. Even HS dropouts had a fighting chance. That ain’t happenin no more. As Buffett alludes to, this is recent. In the last 30 years -as a consequence of offshoring. Cobbling shoes and pickin up garbage ain’t glamorous but they're a living. All the mills closing shop in the south affected working class black employment, in the northeast it affected working class white employment. But add up all the industries affected. Now we’re beginning to offshore food. The laborers who used to cross the border for jobs now have jobs in their own countries which may be better may be worse… It’s all done by a greedy gov and greedy industrialists who turned to globalism and away from supporting local economies to the detriment of the lower and middle classes.
barry-cotter 4y ago
> Can you name just one civilization with staggering inequalities which has not been subject to social conflict? There are no societies, especially unequal or not, without social conflict. If there are no external enemies internal ones will swiftly be found. “Only the dead are safe; only the dead have seen the end of war.” George Santayana
ginko 4y ago
>Can you name just one civilization with staggering inequalities which has not been subject to social conflict? Sweden has rather high level of wealth inequality (about the same level as the US) while being quite stable politically and socially. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_inequality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_in...
- southerntofu 4y ago
  > Sweden (...) quite stable politically and socially. There are riots in Sweden too [0], and what some consider to be terrorist activities from the far left to the far right [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disorder_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disor... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Sweden

panick21_ 4y ago

People want to find these grand narratives. But if you actually look into the data, the real cost are actually mostly related to health care, car ownership and housing police (or city/town planning). If the US fixed its city planning, stopped pushing every family to have many cars and managed its health care system with even minimal efficiency the data would look much different. Offshoring is a bad argument, because that has happened in many places to a large extent and the results are not that American.