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This seems to be based on a faulty premise that cars aren't lasting as long as they used to last and that EVs will be more of the same. The video claims this is

This seems to be based on a faulty premise that cars aren't lasting as long as they used to last and that EVs will be more of the same. The video claims this is due to planned obsolescence facilitated by electronics making the car impossible to repair. I don't believe this is true at all. Battery lifetime aside, cars are very reliable now compared to the past. Multiple studies back this up, but I think most people must anecdotally have noticed fewer broken down cars on the side of the highway and their own cars needing less maintenance and breaking down less often. Yes, modern cars are often less repairable. Lack of repairability is sometimes malevolent, but most times it's just a side effect of making things safer and more reliable. For example, engine computers reduce engine wear and prevent knocking, sealed systems leak less, safety systems require sensors in fenders and wing mirrors and crumple zones result in cars being written off. I have had a car that would have suffered a catastrophic engine failure in the past, but thanks to modern sensors and electronics, instead shut itself down, preventing serious damage. By comparison, my old carburettor car was incredibly easy to repair just using tools in my toolbox, but it always had something going wrong, was a bitch to start in winter and driving in wet leaf conditions was seriously terrifying. My current car is a 2009 petrol with 150k miles and has never had any work outside of the routine service schedule or basic consumables.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
Chinese EV's and the Model 3 Standard Range and most of the upcoming affordable EV's are all shipping with LFP batteries rather than the standard NMC batteries. LFP batteries are usually rated for 750,000 kilometres of range.
- cameronh90 4y ago
  Indeed. I didn't go into EV battery tech because it's still relatively new technology and doesn't really have any relevance to the planned obsolescence angle. But as you point out, newer battery packs have very long design lifetimes. It remains to be seen how well this will translate into actual lifetimes, but at this point it seems like EVs will end up being much more reliable than ICEs. Almost every other part of an EV is much simpler and more reliable. Honestly, even with modern ICEs, it's rarely the engine and drivetrain causing problems towards the end of its life. The interior starts to fall apart, the weather proofing fails, buttons stop working, things start to rattle, etc. until eventually you get bored of the constant minor repairs, meanwhile new cars are so much more comfortable and better designed, better fuel economy, lower emissions/taxes, etc. I only drive an old car because I don't drive often.
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    A lot of the little stuff you just live with on an old car. It's the medium stuff that kills you. If something big goes you just trash the car, but it's the many $500 - $3k repairs that eat you alive. Brakes, suspension, CV joints, et cetera. Electric cars don't eliminate this kind of stuff, but they do reduce it. Brake wear is almost completely eliminated, differentials usually are eliminated, transmissions are single speed transfer boxes, CV joints are sometimes eliminated, et cetera.
    - headsoup 4y ago
      How is brake wear almost eliminated with electric cars?
      - bryanlarsen 4y ago
        Regenerative braking. Brake pads are only used for emergency braking.
        pwinnski 4y ago
        I've seen so much skepticism about this. People without EVs can't seem to believe that brake pads don't experience much wear on EVs. I owned a Toyota Prius for many years, and while not a pure EV, it still used regenerative braking, and after several years of driving, the brake pads were no more worn than when I bought it. I traded it for a Fiat 500e, pure EV, and I don't expect to have to replace the brake pads on it, probably ever.
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        We owned a Toyota Hybrid that someone totaled at ~100k miles, had the factory pads on it. I expect the pads on all of our Teslas to last the life of the vehicles. It’s a minor benefit, but super nice to not need to bother with pad and rotor replacements.
        headsoup 4y ago
HlessClaudesman 4y ago
Also, some percentage of catastrophic accidents are likely due to cowboy mechanics introducing new failures. Complexity reduces the grey zone where end users will attempt a ductape fix themselves. Paying more for an accreted mechanic to do more complex repairs is probably another cause of increasing road safety.
entropicgravity 4y ago
Furthermore, in most countries original car sellers are legally required to stock parts for their cars for some seriously long time; I think it's close to twenty years.
- cameronh90 4y ago
  One problem with the parts of newer cars is quite often they come in "assemblies" rather than individual parts. For example, I somehow misplaced the brake fluid cap for my car and needed to buy a new one. OEM would have required that I buy a new master cylinder assembly (including pump and more) for £200 and no garages seemed to stock the particular cap I needed. As I couldn't find anyone willing to sell the cap on its own, I ended up buying the fluid tank from a breaker on eBay for £30 and just used the cap and put the rest in my loft just in case I ever need it. That being said, the reason this is harder than it used to be is because fewer people need to buy individual parts nowadays. The market is evaporating. Still, some standardisation or legislation about what counts as a "part" could be valuable, but I'd be concerned about over-regulation reducing innovation and reliability, so it's hard to find a balance.
Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
The issue I worry about is the planned obsolesce by code. Like the epson printers stop working after so many prints, or Apple phones slowing done when a new model comes out, or BMW charging for heated seats, or other features that 'expire' purely due to some parameter set in software that has nothing to do with the physical components they control. The cars of the future (EV or ICE) will suck because of these problems that no government will ever address.
- _aavaa_ 4y ago
  > Apple phones slowing done when a new model comes out Is this meme still alive?
  - pestatije 4y ago
    Not a meme. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51413724 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51413724
    - _aavaa_ 4y ago
      Did you read the article? > In 2017, the company confirmed it did slow down some models as they aged, but not to encourage people to upgrade. It said the lithium-ion batteries in the devices became less capable of supplying peak current demands, as they aged over time. That could result in an iPhone unexpectedly shutting down to protect its electronic components.
      - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
        You can believe this reasoning if you wish. Do you also believe Starbucks corp when they fire an employee on the spot for being 2 minutes late because they are strong proponents of timeliness? Or because that person was attempting to form a union?
        _aavaa_ 4y ago
        Except you don’t have to mind read to see Apple’s motives. Get an old iPhone with a bad battery. Benchmark it. Upgrade the battery. Benchmark it again. Compare the results and see if a new battery makes the slowdown go away.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

Chinese EV's and the Model 3 Standard Range and most of the upcoming affordable EV's are all shipping with LFP batteries rather than the standard NMC batteries. LFP batteries are usually rated for 750,000 kilometres of range.

cameronh90 4y ago
Indeed. I didn't go into EV battery tech because it's still relatively new technology and doesn't really have any relevance to the planned obsolescence angle. But as you point out, newer battery packs have very long design lifetimes. It remains to be seen how well this will translate into actual lifetimes, but at this point it seems like EVs will end up being much more reliable than ICEs. Almost every other part of an EV is much simpler and more reliable. Honestly, even with modern ICEs, it's rarely the engine and drivetrain causing problems towards the end of its life. The interior starts to fall apart, the weather proofing fails, buttons stop working, things start to rattle, etc. until eventually you get bored of the constant minor repairs, meanwhile new cars are so much more comfortable and better designed, better fuel economy, lower emissions/taxes, etc. I only drive an old car because I don't drive often.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  A lot of the little stuff you just live with on an old car. It's the medium stuff that kills you. If something big goes you just trash the car, but it's the many $500 - $3k repairs that eat you alive. Brakes, suspension, CV joints, et cetera. Electric cars don't eliminate this kind of stuff, but they do reduce it. Brake wear is almost completely eliminated, differentials usually are eliminated, transmissions are single speed transfer boxes, CV joints are sometimes eliminated, et cetera.
  - headsoup 4y ago
    How is brake wear almost eliminated with electric cars?
    - bryanlarsen 4y ago
      Regenerative braking. Brake pads are only used for emergency braking.
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        I've seen so much skepticism about this. People without EVs can't seem to believe that brake pads don't experience much wear on EVs. I owned a Toyota Prius for many years, and while not a pure EV, it still used regenerative braking, and after several years of driving, the brake pads were no more worn than when I bought it. I traded it for a Fiat 500e, pure EV, and I don't expect to have to replace the brake pads on it, probably ever.
        toomuchtodo 4y ago
        We owned a Toyota Hybrid that someone totaled at ~100k miles, had the factory pads on it. I expect the pads on all of our Teslas to last the life of the vehicles. It’s a minor benefit, but super nice to not need to bother with pad and rotor replacements.
      - headsoup 4y ago

HlessClaudesman 4y ago

Also, some percentage of catastrophic accidents are likely due to cowboy mechanics introducing new failures. Complexity reduces the grey zone where end users will attempt a ductape fix themselves. Paying more for an accreted mechanic to do more complex repairs is probably another cause of increasing road safety.

entropicgravity 4y ago

Furthermore, in most countries original car sellers are legally required to stock parts for their cars for some seriously long time; I think it's close to twenty years.

cameronh90 4y ago
One problem with the parts of newer cars is quite often they come in "assemblies" rather than individual parts. For example, I somehow misplaced the brake fluid cap for my car and needed to buy a new one. OEM would have required that I buy a new master cylinder assembly (including pump and more) for £200 and no garages seemed to stock the particular cap I needed. As I couldn't find anyone willing to sell the cap on its own, I ended up buying the fluid tank from a breaker on eBay for £30 and just used the cap and put the rest in my loft just in case I ever need it. That being said, the reason this is harder than it used to be is because fewer people need to buy individual parts nowadays. The market is evaporating. Still, some standardisation or legislation about what counts as a "part" could be valuable, but I'd be concerned about over-regulation reducing innovation and reliability, so it's hard to find a balance.

Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago

The issue I worry about is the planned obsolesce by code. Like the epson printers stop working after so many prints, or Apple phones slowing done when a new model comes out, or BMW charging for heated seats, or other features that 'expire' purely due to some parameter set in software that has nothing to do with the physical components they control. The cars of the future (EV or ICE) will suck because of these problems that no government will ever address.

_aavaa_ 4y ago
> Apple phones slowing done when a new model comes out Is this meme still alive?
- pestatije 4y ago
  Not a meme. https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51413724 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-51413724
  - _aavaa_ 4y ago
    Did you read the article? > In 2017, the company confirmed it did slow down some models as they aged, but not to encourage people to upgrade. It said the lithium-ion batteries in the devices became less capable of supplying peak current demands, as they aged over time. That could result in an iPhone unexpectedly shutting down to protect its electronic components.
    - Eddy_Viscosity2 4y ago
      You can believe this reasoning if you wish. Do you also believe Starbucks corp when they fire an employee on the spot for being 2 minutes late because they are strong proponents of timeliness? Or because that person was attempting to form a union?
      - _aavaa_ 4y ago
        Except you don’t have to mind read to see Apple’s motives. Get an old iPhone with a bad battery. Benchmark it. Upgrade the battery. Benchmark it again. Compare the results and see if a new battery makes the slowdown go away.